Recent Changes are Inconsistent

[Ianccc 7 / 1,592]

I made this post because I didn't agree with some of the points Fetty made and wanted a more reasonable discussion here.

 

Recently, Vauff announced that Supporters and VIPs can kick Members. The reasoning is that supporters and VIPs should be able to utilize their slot reservations that they paid for.

1. First Problem
   1. If supporters and VIPs cannot join during a popular event, such as #50, because the server is already full of supporters and VIPs, then they cannot utilize their slot reservations. As such, following the reasoning behind the recent change, wouldn't these people deserve compensation (e.g. a refund, extended duration, etc.)? After all, they aren't able to utilize a feature for which they paid.
      1. I can foresee a possible counterargument being that they should arrive earlier to secure a spot on the server... However, isn't this the system we've always used prior to this change? Those most dedicated will generally join hours in advance to secure their spot. But now there are those that pay a few dollars to skip the queue.
      2. If said supporters and VIPs are not entitled to some form of compensation, that would be inconsistent with the line of reasoning for the recent change. 
2. Second Problem
   1. GFL's ZE Specific Member and Donator Perks says the following

      Quote

      - Members won't get dropped for Reserved Slots 

      https://gflclan.com/forums/topic/11642-csgo-ze-ze-specific-member-and-donator-perks/

      1. As much as Supporters and VIPs are guaranteed a reserved slot, Member's are guaranteed immunity from being dropped for Reserved Slots.

      2. Most people sign up and become a Member because they want to be immune from getting kicked for Reserved Slots. With the recent change, there is no real purpose in being a Member (no one is really becoming a Member for two skins or a Member tag lol).

3. Third Problem

   1. This is a public server and the most popular server in CS:GO. The server outgoings were $164.00 as opposed to the $621.49 the server brought in. Only 26.4% of donations are even used.
      https://gflclan.com/outgoings/ for outgoings and https://gflclan.com/forums for current donations.

   2. Many of the players that participated in the event purchased Supporter for $1.50 as a one time purchase just to join the event. This will probably not happen again until another event of a similar magnitude. 

      1. This shows that the change does little to increase steady cash flow, all at the expense of alienating many dedicated players.

      2. There's no need to really pander to Supporters and VIPs, at the expense of the dedicated player base. The money will still flow in, and to suggest otherwise seems to point towards greed. I may be wrong on this point, but these are my two cents.

 

[Flops 386 / 7,269]

interesting data driven analysis. I think the most important point is this:

1 hour ago, Ianccc said:

There's no need to really pander to Supporters and VIPs, at the expense of the dedicated player base. The money will still flow in, and to suggest otherwise seems to point towards greed. I may be wrong on this point, but these are my two cents.

 

[FistMeDaddy 12 / 1,735]

I agree with a lot of the points. I think the main takeaway here, is that you're pushing away your GFL regulars, whom might or might have not been around for the permanent VIP and don't want to drop money every month for the perks. Fundamentally speaking, A lot of these new VIPS/Supporters have joined mainly because there's a pandemic, and people have the time to play. What I see is that once that aspect of influx of players is over, what then? you've successfully proved to your regulars that you don't care for them, as most recent changes (2018 onward) show that the management is interested more in attracting new players rather than keeping the old ones here. I agree that people will quit naturally disregarding any actual changes to the server, but this just further accelerates the process of people leaving. I wouldn't throw around the word "greed" nor really mess a lot with the financial numbers, because realistically speaking, there could be other factors at play.

 

The main issue I see isn't about money but precedence. This move just cements the idea that older players aren't the key focus at all and for upper management new players who will join and leave after ~3 months are the target audience. The sad thing for me is that history shows us this is exactly how you kill servers with an older community. Steam Gamers, Mapeadores, Syndicate Gamers, all bled their players away by really pushing away their regular playerbase in favor of faster-growing numbers.

 

I don't wish to point fingers at anyone specifically, but I do believe this decision doesn't just involve one person, and was a decision that was decided upon by multiple higher-ups. To me, that proves this wasn't some rash "quick buck" type of move but a deliberate show of hand of what many of us who've been playing for some years now have been saying about the shift in focus for the community. 

 

TL:DR this isn't a move that was even necessary, no VIP/Supporter I have seen/talked to ever complained about the old system in place and the fact that it stood as the common ground and still is in the other ZE servers just gives me proof to believe this is not a necessary move. 

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,927]

All other communities I've ever visited have reserved slots for the supporters and VIPs.  Some of them do vaguely push away their "loyal players", but it's completely independent of reserved slots (I've never seen a complaint like this elsewhere).  It's a known-good system that has been working for a long time I'm surprised they didn't adopt it sooner.  It does not surprise me that clicking a checkbox and entering your name on the website makes members feel more entitled than supporters and VIPs maybe you should complain at a McDonalds when the person who pays for a Large Fries gets more than you when employees hook you up with a free small one... at least you've been going there for years?  Let me know how that works out.

[Ianccc 7 / 1,592]

2 hours ago, Joshy said:

All other communities I've ever visited have reserved slots for the supporters and VIPs.  Some of them do vaguely push away their "loyal players", but it's completely independent of reserved slots (I've never seen a complaint like this elsewhere).  It's a known-good system that has been working for a long time I'm surprised they didn't adopt it sooner.  It does not surprise me that clicking a checkbox and entering your name on the website makes members feel more entitled than supporters and VIPs maybe you should complain at a McDonalds when the person who pays for a Large Fries gets more than you when employees hook you up with a free small one... at least you've been going there for years?  Let me know how that works out.

Looking past the instigative nature of your comment, your example represents a false equivalence...

 

I'm not sure if you play ZE often, but if you look at the GFL ZE  Specific Member and Donator Perks page, immunity from being dropped for a reserve slot is a perk for going through the hassle of signing up for Member. For most people with the Member tag, it's the primary reason they sign up. This is different from saying Members deserve a reserved slot. 

 

https://gflclan.com/forums/topic/11642-csgo-ze-ze-specific-member-and-donator-perks/

 

This is not a situation where Members are asking to be entitled to the same rights as Donators and VIPs. It's more of a situation of questioning the hypocritical nature of changing a longstanding perk.

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,927]

2 hours ago, Ianccc said:

Looking past the instigative nature of your comment, your example represents a false equivalence...

 

Oh, it's a false equivalence?  I didn't realize you paid for it.  I'm sorry for my mistake.

 

edit:

 

The thing is, that nobody promised that perks aren't subject to change.  They are adopting a system that works everywhere else and is known-good.  This thread is treating this reasonable change as a scandalous major bait and switch and they've swindled you out of something- talk about something being false.  You've lost nothing from this change; you're just not benefiting or gaining from it anymore (at no expense). 

 

They are not treating unpaid members and regulars as unwanted trash; they're just not catering to every demand.

Edited August 24, 2020 by Joshy

[Aurora is smelly 192 / 5,018]

I thought it was only for the event only

[phantom153 43 / 2,255]

I would just like to say that the kicking members feature can be very easily abused by any troll with VIP.
1)Join event
2)spam retry
3)????
4)profit
You have now ruined peoples experience on the server who may not want to comeback. VIP should have their reserve slot but not at the expense of someone who is actively playing. If there was still spectate then it could just pull from the list of people who are AFK or in spec but no more spec.

[Vauff 965 / 16,981]

12 hours ago, Ianccc said:

1. First Problem
   1. If supporters and VIPs cannot join during a popular event, such as #50, because the server is already full of supporters and VIPs, then they cannot utilize their slot reservations. As such, following the reasoning behind the recent change, wouldn't these people deserve compensation (e.g. a refund, extended duration, etc.)? After all, they aren't able to utilize a feature for which they paid.
      1. I can foresee a possible counterargument being that they should arrive earlier to secure a spot on the server... However, isn't this the system we've always used prior to this change? Those most dedicated will generally join hours in advance to secure their spot. But now there are those that pay a few dollars to skip the queue.
      2. If said supporters and VIPs are not entitled to some form of compensation, that would be inconsistent with the line of reasoning for the recent change. 

To be honest I completely see your point here, we didn't anticipate that the server would ever manage to fill up purely with Supporters+, I was pretty dumbfounded when it happened. However once the server is filled with Supporter+, there isn't much we can do from that point forward, it's inevitable that some donators will be unable to use their perks in that situation. However the member kicking was a no brainer to increase the effectiveness of the reserved slots. If someone wants to refund the donator they paid for due to this happening during the santa event, then something can probably be arranged with higher ups. I would like to note that this will in no way be a common occurrence though, even the follow up diddle extreme event today never managed to fully fill up with Supporter+, let alone future events with less demand. Santa extreme is just that big of a draw to people.

 

12 hours ago, Ianccc said:

1. Second Problem
   1. GFL's ZE Specific Member and Donator Perks says the following

      https://gflclan.com/forums/topic/11642-csgo-ze-ze-specific-member-and-donator-perks/

      1. As much as Supporters and VIPs are guaranteed a reserved slot, Member's are guaranteed immunity from being dropped for Reserved Slots.

      2. Most people sign up and become a Member because they want to be immune from getting kicked for Reserved Slots. With the recent change, there is no real purpose in being a Member (no one is really becoming a Member for two skins or a Member tag lol).

I've updated the wording in that thread to be more clear, but this change by no means means this perk is useless. 99.9% of the time the server will not be filled by members, and therefore members will have no risk of being kicked during those times.

 

12 hours ago, Ianccc said:

1. Third Problem

   1. This is a public server and the most popular server in CS:GO. The server outgoings were $164.00 as opposed to the $621.49 the server brought in. Only 26.4% of donations are even used.
      https://gflclan.com/outgoings/ for outgoings and https://gflclan.com/forums for current donations.

   2. Many of the players that participated in the event purchased Supporter for $1.50 as a one time purchase just to join the event. This will probably not happen again until another event of a similar magnitude. 

      1. This shows that the change does little to increase steady cash flow, all at the expense of alienating many dedicated players.

      2. There's no need to really pander to Supporters and VIPs, at the expense of the dedicated player base. The money will still flow in, and to suggest otherwise seems to point towards greed. I may be wrong on this point, but these are my two cents.

Donations go to GFL as a whole, these funds don't just pay for ZE. Regardless, the motivator behind this change was not to increase cash flow, even though we obviously knew that would be an inevitable effect. You can call us money hungry all you want, but me and Snowy as managers have absolutely no stake in the money that comes to the server, and this decision was only made between us. The reasoning for this change is making sure that our donators (whether old or new) have access to their perks when it matters most, there's no reason someone who just filled out an application form should have immunity over the people who pay towards the upkeep of the server.

[Aurora is smelly 192 / 5,018]

5 hours ago, Vauff said:

If someone wants to refund the donator they paid for due to this happening during the santa event, then something can probably be arranged with higher ups

@Xy 

[gkuo88 67 / 2,820]

18 hours ago, Ianccc said:

There's no need to really pander to Supporters and VIPs, at the expense of the dedicated player base. The money will still flow in, and to suggest otherwise seems to point towards greed. I may be wrong on this point, but these are my two cents.

 

18 hours ago, Ianccc said:

Many of the players that participated in the event purchased Supporter for $1.50 as a one time purchase just to join the event. This will probably not happen again until another event of a similar magnitude. 

 

wait a sec wot