If God created the universe then who created god?

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,945]

14 minutes ago, Syntax said:

@Joshy it's a hypothesis because it hasn't been fully proven, but it does make sense and it's pretty logical, I mean unless you have a better one well...

Let's keep this on topic please, if you want to talk about it let's do it in discord or somewhere else, just not here because this is about god =)

 

I wouldn't normally respond except I'm becoming frustrated with the second or third time you have accused me of being off topic and needing to take this to Discord or Private Message as if I were the one doing something off (example).  I'll discuss the topic as I wish within the bounds of the rules; I also don't use Discord and will not be discussing anything with anyone in private.  You're the one who brought up the total universe energy and used it - to my understanding - as a tool against religion, and so I don't think I'm being too unreasonable in asking why that makes something of all time a useless entity.

 

It doesn't matter to me if you don't want to answer or don't have an answer.  This isn't an easy topic, and that was my goal in my statements or explanations, queries, and perspective on all of this.

 

P.S. Don't tell me what to do.

Edited September 24, 2017 by Joshy

[Ben 2,378 / 31,861]

13 minutes ago, Syntax said:

Hey Ben,

 

As I mentioned before, the result of that equation means that God is a useless entity that doesn't serve a purpose, means it's there because it is, was, and there's no reason for it to exist nor a reason for it to die, it means it's a virtual entity that has the potential of existing but doesn't exist, it's a bit complex.

1

Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV
"I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”

 

He does have a purpose. If He is eternal, then He's all-powerful. He gave a life for us to exist, to explore what He created. Which is one of the reasons why I believe in God's existence. The point you're trying to get across here is that God is beyond even our minds but that doesn't make him useless. I think we can only know what is good because we have God to compare everything to. Being in his image we can use logic and know some things.

 

I hope I explained this all I can in a way. 

[kneegerrlover123 389 / 8,946]

4 minutes ago, Joshy said:

 

I wouldn't normally respond except I'm becoming frustrated with the second or third time you have accused me of being off topic and needing to take this to Discord or Private Message as if I were the one doing something off.  I'll discuss the topic as I wish within the bounds of the rules; I also don't use Discord and will not be discussing anything with anyone in private.  You're the one who brought up the total universe energy and used it - to my understanding - as a tool against religion, and so I don't think I'm being too unreasonable in asking why that makes something of all time a useless entity.

 

It doesn't matter to me if you don't want to answer or don't have an answer.  This isn't an easy topic, and that was my goal in my statements or explanations, queries, and perspective on all of this.

 

P.S. Don't tell me what to do.

I'm sorry I didn't mean any offense it's 10:30 PM here and I'm a bit tired and I didn't want to leave before giving a final response =), so I was trying to end it because it's too much unnecessary talk for 1 thread that's about god, but hey I mean you have a solid point, you do you my dude, I just didn't want to like not reply and reply tomorrow which would make it a bit like I ignored your opinion or something like that, anyways, you have a very valid point, can't deny it.

5 minutes ago, Benroy said:

Isaiah 43:6-7 ESV
"I will say to the north, Give up,
and to the south, Do not withhold;
bring my sons from afar
and my daughters from the end of the earth,
7 everyone who is called by my name,
whom I created for my glory,
whom I formed and made.”

 

He does have a purpose. If He is eternal, then He's all-powerful. He gave a life for us to exist, to explore what He created. Which is one of the reasons why I believe in God's existence. The point you're trying to get across here is that God is beyond even our minds but that doesn't make him useless. I think we can only know what is good because we have God to compare everything to. Being in his image we can use logic and know some things.

 

I hope I explained this all I can in a way. 

As for that, while it sounds a bit reasonable and all, the issue I'm having and the question I'm asking is that, God is there to create us right? why is he there to create us? it means that someone else created him, he can't just be there because he was and he will, it kinda contradicts itself, also, humanity has existed for atleast 100+ thousand years, and scientific proof has it that they've been worshiping other stuff before "invisible gods" for so long, they worshiped stones because they believed they're mythical and outstanding simply because they're above the ground, then meteors, shooting stars, and even asteroids (very small ones) because they thought they are getting punished for something wrong they did, and so they believed it was punishment, then came water, sun, moon, animals, and even people, they worshiped those who are powerful.

 

I'm very sorry if I'm offending you or anything but like I believe my logic is a bit different than yours and I don't think we'll ever get along, while I will never say Yes or No because both of us have solid statements, I will consider this a philosophy session since we do not have solid 100% logical statements, anyways...

 

There's a popular quote the majority uses nowadays which is "Humans are curious creatures by default", which is true, but they're also ignorant, and I believe that back in the early stages of human development (6000 BC, 40K BC, or even 100K+ doesn't matter) we discovered things we couldn't understand, we just simply couldn't solve them or give a solid answer for them, and that's why we created something mythical and legendary to hold answers for us, but now we don't, as science progresses more things are being answered, and it's why recently you start seeing more atheists rising...

[Ben 2,378 / 31,861]

Partially going to answer this if you don't mind. (Thanks for the fact you've given me

1 hour ago, Syntax said:

As for that, while it sounds a bit reasonable and all, the issue I'm having and the question I'm asking is that, God is there to create us right? why is he there to create us? it means that someone else created him, he can't just be there because he was and he will, it kinda contradicts itself, also, humanity has existed for atleast 100+ thousand years, and scientific proof has it that they've been worshiping other stuff before "invisible gods" for so long, they worshiped stones because they believed they're mythical and outstanding simply because they're above the ground, then meteors, shooting stars, and even asteroids (very small ones) because they thought they are getting punished for something wrong they did, and so they believed it was punishment, then came water, sun, moon, animals, and even people, they worshiped those who are powerful.

 

You've asserted that because God did this, that means it was God's purpose or that God had to do this. This is a blatant fallacy, especially as the only evidence you have to support the assertion is that God did, in fact, make humans. As well, you take it further and assert that because God created humans, that means something must have created God. You have not laid the proper logical foundation for this claim but have used a completely unrelated incident to assert that another thing happened, despite all claims to the contrary. 

 

So that being said, you're lacking a few major points in your logic (which is in above ^)

 

And yes, we can get along, I respect your decision on not believing in God or being Agnostic, and I'm happy to answer more questions about this. Who says you can't be friends with someone who doesn't have a belief? 

[kneegerrlover123 389 / 8,946]

13 minutes ago, Benroy said:

Partially going to answer this if you don't mind. (Thanks for the fact you've given me

You've asserted that because God did this, that means it was God's purpose or that God had to do this. This is a blatant fallacy, especially as the only evidence you have to support the assertion is that God did, in fact, make humans. As well, you take it further and assert that because God created humans, that means something must have created God. You have not laid the proper logical foundation for this claim but have used a completely unrelated incident to assert that another thing happened, despite all claims to the contrary. 

 

So that being said, you're lacking a few major points in your logic (which is in above ^)

 

And yes, we can get along, I respect your decision on not believing in God or being Agnostic, and I'm happy to answer more questions about this. Who says you can't be friends with someone who doesn't have a belief? 

Fair enough, but not as enough as I would like it to be, I have one last question before I go to sleep (12 am I wake up at 5am...)

If god created us, why did he? in Islam, I don't know if it's the same for Christianity, god created us to worship him right? and since god existed and will always exist, means he already existed and will always exist, so he knows everything, which means that HE WROTE our faith, HE WROTE our moves, HE WROTE everything.

 

Let's get to the real deal, hey, let's say i'm wrong and god exists, and now i'm going to hell, why? because when he was writing my destiny he wrote it so I'm to be an atheist? a non-believer? he gave me nerves so I can feel fire burning my body for an eternity? and it repeats?!! it goes on and on and on, I never die...? I just keep getting roasted because he decided that I should when he was writing my destiny? 

[Ben 2,378 / 31,861]

3 minutes ago, Syntax said:

Fair enough, but not as enough as I would like it to be, I have one last question before I go to sleep (12 am I wake up at 5am...)

If god created us, why did he? in Islam, I don't know if it's the same for Christianity, god created us to worship him right? and since god existed and will always exist, means he already existed and will always exist, so he knows everything, which means that HE WROTE our faith, HE WROTE our moves, HE WROTE everything.

 

Let's get to the real deal, hey, let's say i'm wrong and god exists, and now i'm going to hell, why? because when he was writing my destiny he wrote it so I'm to be an atheist? a non-believer? he gave me nerves so I can feel fire burning my body for an eternity? and it repeats?!! it goes on and on and on, I never die...? I just keep getting roasted because he decided that I should when he was writing my destiny? 

Something I've already said before: He gave a life for us to exist, to explore what He created, and to worship him (Reference in Isaiah 43:6-7.)

 

It sounds like determinism, to be honest. I know that God gave us free-will, giving us a choice to do whatever we want to do, look in Romans 9:14, and following up to ver 19 in any Bible translation. So that being said, you can believe whatever you want, do whatever you want, and act like whatever you want. 

 

Also, that's for Calvinist, and I'm not one of them because I believe in free will which we were given.

[kneegerrlover123 389 / 8,946]

Didn't think about this before but one more thing.

 

Why are we living in such a massive universe that is STILL expanding and we probably barely see a fraction of it (observable universe) if the purpose was for just for us to be created, plus we cant and we will probably never be able to discover it seen that its SO SO SO LARGE.

 

I feel like the universe wasn't created for us, but we were created because of it. 

[Aquaticfilly0 394 / 7,993]

2 hours ago, Benroy said:

. I think we can only know what is good because we have God to compare everything to. Being in his image we can use logic and know some things.

@Benroy, no offense, but if you follow god's image, how are you good? God (im athiest) is not good. If God was good, then the holocaust would not have happened, 9/11, wars, cancer, murders, all of that. If god was good, he wouldn't make people suffer through that stuff. i don't believe in him, but if I did, i would say him as all powerful, not all good. And answer me this. why would he make other planets we can't live on? It makes no sense. you say god can do anything, but can he make a rock he cannot lift?

[Snoopy 1,480 / 15,610]

1 minute ago, Aquaticfilly0 said:

If God was good, then the holocaust would not have happened, 9/11, wars, cancer, murders, all of that. If god was good, he wouldn't make people suffer through that stuff.

 

Maybe it's his way of attempting to control population?

 

I don't believe in a god, just putting that out there now.

[Aquaticfilly0 394 / 7,993]

2 minutes ago, Snoopy said:

 

Maybe it's his way of attempting to control population?

 

I don't believe in a god, just putting that out there now.

If he was trying to keep population in check, make it so people can only have a certain amount of children, or people would'nt live so long. If he is so powerful and good, don't you think he could find a way to keep population in check without disasters?

[Ben 2,378 / 31,861]

16 minutes ago, Syntax said:

Didn't think about this before but one more thing.

 

Why are we living in such a massive universe that is STILL expanding and we probably barely see a fraction of it (observable universe) if the purpose was for just for us to be created, plus we cant and we will probably never be able to discover it seen that its SO SO SO LARGE.

 

I feel like the universe wasn't created for us, but we were created because of it. 

2

Arguably, the universe wasn't made for us. It was made for God, by God. 

 

We can still explore what He created, by using what He also created: Science. 

 

11 minutes ago, Aquaticfilly0 said:

@Benroy, no offense, but if you follow god's image, how are you good? God (im athiest) is not good. If God was good, then the holocaust would not have happened, 9/11, wars, cancer, murders, all of that. If god was good, he wouldn't make people suffer through that stuff. i don't believe in him, but if I did, i would say him as all powerful, not all good. And answer me this. why would he make other planets we can't live on? It makes no sense. you say god can do anything, but can he make a rock he cannot lift?

None taken. I ignore insults I get when people learn that I'm Christian. 

 

God lets bad things happen so that He can draw a greater good from them.  Let me tell you a story, this happened to me before.

 

One day, in 2012, my dad suffered a major heart attack and made it through the first night. It was like this and the doctors were doubting. At that time I began to question to know why God let this happened, and then I cleared my mind. The doctors set up surgery date and my family hoped that my dad would make it to the one of longest and important day of my life - open heart surgery. It took 6 hours, possibly more, surgeon managed to complete the surgery and made it successful.  

 

So, in a way: God tests us to see if we'd remain faithful. At that day, it was one of a miracle from God. It's like God tested Abraham and Job. When things get taken away, we get blessed by the Lord. (Call me out if I repeated this 3 times). I was tested several times this year, and last year. It's tough trying to grow when you let bad things take over your mind.

[HackingPotato 1,297 / 14,301]

For the original question, look up the First cause argument by Thomas Aquinas. 

 

1 hour ago, Aquaticfilly0 said:

If God was good, then the holocaust would not have happened, 9/11, wars, cancer, murders, all of that. If god was good, he wouldn't make people suffer through that stuff

 

God is omniscient and omnipotent. Many believe that God weighed the options of Human kind. He saw the potential in mankind and the good we can create, but he also saw the bad. There is no way to avoid the evil within the world or avoid the bad that happens without taking away our freewill. God gave us free will and loves us , but to stop the bad things that happen would be stripping us of our freewill. Many Catholic scholars say that God is inherently good. Those things that are 'bad' are just things that lack the 'good' or for what many of those scholar say, lack "god" within it/them (I dont agree with that myself, many atheists are 'good' and have a solid set of morals.)

 

I spent the past year studying (in particular) reason, freewill and God (3 years studying Catholicism and 1 year on other world religions). Many of these questions were answered by Thomas Aquinas, Aristotle, and other religious philosophers. but very few felt satisfying. I would like to state that I do not have a particular religion or had one when first learning about it but learned about it in an academic setting. Figured people should know that since I do not want people thinking that this is my thoughts on the topic based on my own religious views.

 

 

[Kubnair 1,158 / 17,225]

Thank you guys for all the answers but what I'm looking for has to do with more of how the universe came to be and what was before it and not is God real or is science true

 

I personally believe the idea of a higher being who created everything was made by humans for humans. There are a lot of galaxies and another belief I have is each galaxy has at least one different or same kind of life form on it so for all we know we were created by another being which has lived on this universe longer than us but not a heavenly being.

 

Just the thought that the universe was completely dark with no planets stars nothing and then all of a sudden so many things are created compels me and really blows my mind I'd still love to see more thoughts and theories. 

 

@Joshy that theory of a higher power being able to see more dimensions fucks me up but i love it

 

@Benroy If you dont mind me asking there had to have been a start even to God. How did he exist how did time start existing? God appearing out of nowhere into our dark universe and deciding to create planets is fine but where did he appear from? How did the idea of planets starts hit him?

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,945]

I think you would really enjoy physics.  Some people have told me their interest in the expanding universe is to discover or understand our origin better.  They described it to me like reverse engineering or reconstructing the universe.

 

 

Is it necessary for God to have a beginning?  Maybe God does indeed have a beginning, but their definition of beginning is different from ours much like the difference between what we consider bounded/enclosed compared to entities in higher dimensions.

[Cassie 1,226 / 23,060]

18 hours ago, Aquaticfilly0 said:

Scientists have proven for the energy of the atom making it explode. If god existed, I don't think he would have cancer, murder, all of that. He would stop the hurricanes, tornado's. I'm an athiest, and i don't believe someone is watching us. If I have one life, ima do shit now, not in the 'afterlife'. That's what I believe. If God is all powerful, but not good, why do people look to him? you do you, and I accept your religion. But answer me when i saw, 'have you ever prayed to god, and he responded?'

Yes. God doesn't answer us im some kind of human way of actually speaking, in my idea of religion, he speaks through acts. Last night I was asking questions like this, and a song came in the radio that said "When you don't give the answers, as I cry out to you, I will trust in you."

Religion can't answer everything. Nothing can answer everything. So should we abandon everything and say nothing matters? Is believing in nothing really better than believing in something? Because at the end of the day, you will die. And what kind of life will you have lived, one where you believed in something and because of that, you were kinder and made a greater impact? I'm not saying all atheists are evil or whatever, I'm saying if everyone strived to be nice than even if this is all we get, at least you did something. 

Any just my two cents

[Ben 2,378 / 31,861]

10 hours ago, Kubnair said:

 If you dont mind me asking there had to have been a start even to God. How did he exist how did time start existing? God appearing out of nowhere into our dark universe and deciding to create planets is fine but where did he appear from? How did the idea of planets starts hit him?

The question is unanswerable and I cannot answer that because I’m not God. Like I said, He is eternal. Out of nowhere it just started. 

 

Although, God exists beyond and outside of the universe - and so He’s not bound to laws of casualties. This doesn’t mean He can’t enter the universe though. Our brains aren’t meant to understand/comprehend it. 

[kneegerrlover123 389 / 8,946]

2 hours ago, Benroy said:

Our brains aren’t meant to understand/comprehend it. 

This is true but also contradicting, sorry but like as I said, since the beginning of the human race, they've been curious, and they still are, they discovered things they could not explain, and so they claimed that a god created it, a great example for this can be the Greek Gods.

[Ben 2,378 / 31,861]

1 hour ago, Syntax said:

This is true but also contradicting, sorry but like as I said, since the beginning of the human race, they've been curious, and they still are, they discovered things they could not explain, and so they claimed that a god created it, a great example for this can be the Greek Gods.

Conflating Greek Gods and the God of Judao-Christian origins is intellectually dishonest. You don't have thousands of years of historical accounts from multiple sources and different languages on multiple continents to contest to the veracity of the claims of Greek Gods. Instead, you have different cities in which admittedly these "gods" were created as a representative for each different city, similar to a home team in sports. You don't have specific references to specific people like you do in the New Testament for example, such as Caiphas or Pilate, one of whose tomb has been found and the other whose house has also been found.

 

Again, like I said, our brains aren’t meant to understand/comprehend it. 

[HackingPotato 1,297 / 14,301]

15 hours ago, Kubnair said:

 there had to have been a start even to God. How did he exist how did time start existing? God appearing out of nowhere

Quote

...these facts philosophers infer deductively, inductively, or abductively by inference to the best explanation that a first or sustaining cause, a necessary being, an unmoved mover, or a personal being (God) exists that caused and/or sustains the universe.

 

The first cause explained in the Standford encyclopedia. The first cause argument was first created and published by Thomas Aquinas. 

 

 

[Black 59 / 3,430]

19 hours ago, HackingPotato said:

For the original question, look up the First cause argument by Thomas Aquinas. 

 

 

God is omniscient and omnipotent.

 

You're missing a major qualifier of the existence of god and that is that he is omnibenelvolent. Now I don't know about anyone else but I'm pretty sure if we look what was happened even in the past century that it's self-evident that he's none of these things.

 

To the main question of the topic, everyone here has pointed to scriptural and philosophical interpretations of a omniscient, omnipotent and omnibenelvoent God but hasn't produce and actual concrete evidence for his existence.

This might set some people off (hopefully it doesn't) but referencing book that has a litany of evil, devious and immortal attitudes towards humanity itself to the point where the modern christian is force to either completely disregard half of its book in its entirety or claim it's some sort of metaphor is not a very good place to cite your evidence.

21 hours ago, Snoopy said:

 

Maybe it's his way of attempting to control population?

 

I don't believe in a god, just putting that out there now.

I find it ironic that the Jesus's Father (Or himself? That whole trinity debacle is confusing) would exterminate millions of his own people for the sake of "population control".  It's more ironic that not only God repeats this same genocidal habit of "population control", but he does it to the same set of ethic people throughout history. 

Makes you wonder if Hitler, Stalin, and Lennin were terrible people or if there were just acting as an extension of God's Will or both?

 

21 hours ago, Benroy said:

Arguably, the universe wasn't made for us. It was made for God, by God. 

 

We can still explore what He created, by using what He also created: Science. 

 

None taken. I ignore insults I get when people learn that I'm Christian. 

 

God lets bad things happen so that He can draw a greater good from them.  Let me tell you a story, this happened to me before.

 

One day, in 2012, my dad suffered a major heart attack and made it through the first night. It was like this and the doctors were doubting. At that time I began to question to know why God let this happened, and then I cleared my mind. The doctors set up surgery date and my family hoped that my dad would make it to the one of longest and important day of my life - open heart surgery. It took 6 hours, possibly more, surgeon managed to complete the surgery and made it successful.  

 

So, in a way: God tests us to see if we'd remain faithful. At that day, it was one of a miracle from God. It's like God tested Abraham and Job. When things get taken away, we get blessed by the Lord. (Call me out if I repeated this 3 times). I was tested several times this year, and last year. It's tough trying to grow when you let bad things take over your mind.

 

This whole theory of "it's just a test of faith" is nothing more then a failure of understanding the totality of evil that has happened in the world. To think that there is always net positive result of one "God's Test" is a ludicrous stance.  It's the ultimate "get away with imposing bad shit on the world" free card every religious person tries to pull in an argument.

I wholeheartedly reject the notion that the reason why unfortunate events happened to human beings is test of faith. What kind of all-knowing entity subjects their creation to cruel, tedious and just flat-out unnecessary trials?

Furthermore why would anyone in their right mind would ever worship yet alone acknowledge such an entity?

 

1 hour ago, Benroy said:

Conflating Greek Gods and the God of Judao-Christian origins is intellectually dishonest. You don't have thousands of years of historical accounts from multiple sources and different languages on multiple continents to contest to the veracity of the claims of Greek Gods. Instead, you have different cities in which admittedly these "gods" were created as a representative for each different city, similar to a home team in sports. You don't have specific references to specific people like you do in the New Testament for example, such as Caiphas or Pilate, one of whose tomb has been found and the other whose house has also been found.

 

Again, like I said, our brains aren’t meant to understand/comprehend it.