If God created the universe then who created god?

[Bae 2,489 / 41,520]

I understand you prioritize on religious speakers, but I want to be able to voice my opinion as a non-believer. I mean... I was once a believer but I believed in Buddha and in Buddha, I'm sure some of you all heard that Buddha isn't actually a good God. Buddha is a greedy God or at least for Chinese people, I am unsure if it's the same for India (Origin). Our God wasn't just greedy but history shown that he was a murderous God, so I guess you could say he's a Devil. But over the years, people made him seem like a nice God who gave prosperous life and wealth. 

 

Bare with me here, I'm not that smart and I'm just basing off of what I believe how the universe was created. I believed Aliens existed but now how normal people perceive them as green and ugly. I believe that there was once another Earth, and somehow the existence from there transfer or magically teleport into our universe's Earth. Like how our Sun was not the first sun, without a sun, life is practically over or at least from what I learn in school. Sun is important to life. But if I were to say how exactly life forms were created, I just think what @Aquaticfilly0 said is correct. I mean I was about to say Nature created it, but in order for nature to exist, is particles or science in general. Unless, the only other option I would also think of is that the other Earth had way far advance technology than we do; and they actually travel from another galaxy to the next to find another Earth. Most likely, it wasn't exactly called Earth for them, but that's how I think.

[Ben 2,378 / 31,856]

2 hours ago, Black said:

 

This whole theory of "it's just a test of faith" is nothing more then a failure of understanding the totality of evil that has happened in the world. To think that there is always net positive result of one "God's Test" is a ludicrous stance.  It's the ultimate "get away with imposing bad shit on the world" free card every religious person tries to pull in an argument.

I wholeheartedly reject the notion that the reason why unfortunate events happened to human beings is test of faith. What kind of all-knowing entity subjects their creation to cruel, tedious and just flat-out unnecessary trials?

Furthermore why would anyone in their right mind would ever worship yet alone acknowledge such an entity?

You forgot to notice that God gave us free will. 

 

I'm going to point out two things:

First, God usually lets things go naturally, and that it's not "a test from God" when bad things happen every single time.

Second, bad events can often improve people, or develop them to do great things in future, which usually happens. 

 

Take your time and listen to this video. https://youtu.be/FC6CRRz4FEs

 

Also, that image was kinda unnecessary.

[Hello. 1,452 / 24,189]

Not going to lie: This topic is a very interesting one.

 

22 hours ago, Kubnair said:

Thank you guys for all the answers but what I'm looking for has to do with more of how the universe came to be and what was before it and not is God real or is science true

 

That's a very far-fetched theory. 

 

To break it down (as others more or less have), you'd have to go based on guesses/theories. I'm not saying this is bad, and yes, there are those will can and will link examples (which are more than welcome).

 

What I mean is, you're asking for people to think back to a time pre-recorded in human history, which is already a very hotly debated topic. 

 

So, if we're going to do this, we will have to set aside religion (for the time being. We'll come back, don't worry.) and start with science.

 

Science says: The universe came to exist via the Big Bang theory (Well, the most popular, anyway.). I believe @Joshy or @Shuruia could give a much better explanation, or you could click on the Wikipedia link, but ultimately it's explained as an expanding (see previous comments) of the universe, and still is.

 

Now, let's rewind.

 

Going solely off of the BB theory: Prior to the Big Bang itself, the universe was predicted to have been extremely hot. Heat built up over time and boom = Big Bang. Now, I know I am WAY oversimplifying what actually happened. Believe me, I. KNOW. But, I'm just using this as an example to put everyone on even terms.

 

So, we're here, before the BB, and it's hot. Really, really hot. We already know what's going to happen (according to BB theory), but going in reverse? Not as easy, since we're already running off of theory and guesswork. One could equate these temperatures to being in a literal hell. 

 

At this point, no current life on Earth would survive, and no records currently suggest anything might have. 

 

But did anything exist? Well, truthfully? No one knows. Not really. It's mostly bogged down by theories proposed by man. Short of building a time machine and viewing the beginning of the universe (a la Futurama) there's no true way of knowing.

 

Now, religion!

 

This feels more @Benroy's area, but I was traversed enough in scripture I can at least give it a shot.

 

The Bible starts out: In the beginning, man created Adam and Eve... and you get the rest. I'm skipping here, I know, but understand what I'm coming to here.

 

There is no mention of this before as there really is no need. It has already been stated, but: God is eternal. There was nothing before and will be nothing after because (you guessed it!) God. Is. Eternal. This isn't to say there wasn't anything before, but to elaborate on what the beginning was for humanity.

 

Truth be told, if God does exist then you can ask them at that point in time. Until then, it isn't to say some Christians are not curious about what may have been, anymore than scientists, but that the Bible doesn't mention it simply as there was no need. God is eternal - What else matters?

 

 

Now, with this all being said, I should point out that I am in Joshy's sentiment of being agnostic. I've mentioned it before, but I do agree with some that it seems odd to have this universe and only have... us. Here. By ourselves. I really just don't buy that. To get back to the point: Christianity pinpoints the beginning between 4,000 to 15,000 years ago. Scientists believe the beginning occurred billions of years ago.

 

In truth, no one has any hard facts.

 

A good topic question for sure, though.

Edited September 26, 2017 by PB-n-J

[Black 59 / 3,430]

1 hour ago, Benroy said:

You forgot to notice that God gave us free will. 

 

I'm going to point out two things:

First, God usually lets things go naturally, and that it's not "a test from God" when bad things happen every single time.

Second, bad events can often improve people, or develop them to do great things in future, which usually happens. 

 

Take your time and listen to this video. https://youtu.be/FC6CRRz4FEs

 

Also, that image was kinda unnecessary.

The image size look much more obnxious than I thought it would be my bad ):

Also thank to whoever moderator congest all my responses into one post. +1 to whoever that is. Had no idea I made a string of responses.

 

 

If God created us to have free-will, by extension he also created evil to some degree which again means he's not omnibenevolent.  

Also, what about the people who were born into certain circumstances such has having mental disabilites or impaired vision or whatever other birth defect you can name? Was it their free-will to obtain certain ill-ness?

Here's my thoughts on free-will.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7t_Uyi9bNS4&t=75s

It's a short abridge version of his podcast but the general message is there.

 

 

 

I never quite said or at least insinuated that bad experiences doesn't bring personal growth. My problem with that argument is that it's faulty by design. Let me set the picture.

 

Your own personal experience with your father (Glad the surgery worked out by the way) helped you grow emotionally as a person.

 

However, what about another person who wasn't so lucky ended up loosing his father which eventually drove that person and his family into depression which later drove them into making irresponsible self-detrimental decisions?  What if those decisions end up costing their own or someone else's life? 

 

My whole problem of the "It's apart of god's plan" theory is that it gives a person an opportunity further legitimizes illegitimate behavior and actions committed by people. 

This further illustrates what I mean:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QuPsxFklxaw

 

Edited September 26, 2017 by Black

[Shuruia 3,145 / 28,023]

Let's see how far I can expand the subject.

 

21 hours ago, Benroy said:

You forgot to notice that God gave us free will. 

Given that Yahweh is the judge, jury and executioner for any and all sins (many of which could be considered as "sins" for entirely arbitrary and nonsensical reasons), it presents a rather damning problem. Granting humans free will is all well and good, and it's even better if humans use this free will to do good for their fellow man. Now, what if humans set out to do good in a manner in which Yahweh would disagree? They could make the choice to do what they feel is the right thing, but they have faith that an omnipotent force is breathing down their neck to damn them for all eternity, just because this omnipotent force told its followers to write down some incredibly arbitrary rules that would be obsolete within a millennium or two. Is that free will? Yes, but it's a very twisted form of free will. It's the equivalent of having someone hold you at gunpoint and telling you what to do; you could make the choice to not do what the gunman commands, but a smart person (especially in the presence of a danger that is vastly more obvious than a fairy tale figure) would naturally be inclined to avoid those bullet wounds. That's no longer free will at that point, but rather survival instinct. In other words, people have faith because they're afraid of the consequences of what will happen to them if their faith begins to falter for whatever reason.

 

I used to fear your God as well. My fear was strong, and I was strongly Catholic as a result. I constantly had to do checks and balances in my head, but for all the wrong reasons. Instead of thinking "Is this the right thing to do? Will I harm others for doing this?", I instead had to think "Will God punish me for this? Will I go to Hell for this?". Luckily, I learned to stop fearing gods since I figured out that religion is an ethnic construct. Religion for the vast majority of people is decided for them based on their nation of origin, as most people don't actively make the decision to follow a particular religion because they prefer it over the other; they only adhere to the religion that they've been brought up with since it's convenient.

 

I've also heard the argument that the fundamental statutes a deity sets for you are for the purpose of "persuading" humans to do good (or what Yahweh thinks is good in this case) through rule of fear. The ends justify the means, in other words. Well, that's a lot of hoops to jump through just to minimise the damage of free will, isn't it? It would mean that religion and all of the rules that come with it are essentially a soft leash on humanity's whims. So we still have free will, but there's a cap on how much free will we can have before certain dangerous thoughts are had. I don't like that. In fact, I find the very notion insulting to the human race. We can grow and be good to each other without some old dusty book.

 

I suppose I should give biblical free will some credit, though. After all, it can allow the best Christians to cherry-pick which rules from the Bible are relevant to modern society, which rules are obsolete to modern society, and which rules are the ones that you shout at the worst Christians for "misinterpreting".

 

21 hours ago, Benroy said:

First, God usually lets things go naturally, and that it's not "a test from God" when bad things happen every single time.

"usually"

 

If God is omnipotent, then one can logically assume that he is tireless. In other words, God will never tire (physically or otherwise) of his methods or handiwork, as to suggest otherwise would mean that he is not omnipotent.

 

If God is omnibenevolent, then one can logically assume that he is a perpetual force for good. In other words, God will always have his best intentions and our best interests at heart, as to suggest otherwise would mean that he is not omnibenevolent.

 

So if God "usually" lets things go naturally, what are the exceptions? Why does he, in his apparent infinite power and kindness, allow these certain exceptions? That's a rhetorical question; I already know that you can't accurately answer that question due to you already being rooted in the belief that we cannot hope to understand how such a higher being operates. This is a higher being that we cannot understand, as we have been created by said higher being to assume a form that cannot readily comprehend the higher being or its ideals. Why is that? Why would we not be born with the knowledge so that we can make the choice whether or not to adhere to these ideals that we'd already have knowledge of? The concept of free will would still be there, but with a lot less messy cases of something being "lost in translation" in scripture or teachings.

 

To pose an alternative question, I want to ask why you would put so much faith and love into a being that you admit to being beyond our comprehension. If this being is vastly beyond our comprehension, isn't it somewhat arrogant to simply assume that this being has our best interests at heart? Let's assume that a higher being (not necessarily Yahweh) does exist. It could be good, it could be evil, or it simply could be completely indifferent to our existence. How do you figure out which one it is? Is it because it can seemingly communicate incredibly specific ideals to people to transcribe into a holy book, hence making the deity an arbitrary secret keeper? Or is it because you feel as though you should "love" this being out of fear of what you think it's going to do to you if you don't?

 

21 hours ago, Benroy said:

Second, bad events can often improve people, or develop them to do great things in future, which usually happens. 

Yes, but I know you already understand that this cuts both ways. One bad day has equal potential to make someone learn a valuable lesson and turn over a new leaf, or to burn down the forest that leaf came from because they have nothing to lose anymore.

 

I can see the benefit, though. If I were to pretend to be a god (I have to think like one when I write for certain characters in my literary project, after all), I would let a touch of chaos loose every now and then to remind humans how to be kind to each other in times of strife. Of course, I imagine I wouldn't make for the most benevolent god, so it'd only be to balance out some of the less savoury things that I'd do.

Edited September 26, 2017 by Shuruia

[Ben 2,378 / 31,856]

22 hours ago, Black said:

If God created us to have free-will, by extension he also created evil to some degree which again means he's not omnibenevolent.  

Also, what about the people who were born into certain circumstances such has having mental disabilites or impaired vision or whatever other birth defect you can name? Was it their free-will to obtain certain ill-ness?

 

5

22 hours ago, Black said:

However, what about another person who wasn't so lucky ended up loosing his father which eventually drove that person and his family into depression which later drove them into making irresponsible self-detrimental decisions?  What if those decisions end up costing their own or someone else's life? 

1

He created beings capable of evil; he did not create their evilness. I am deaf, and it happened out of nowhere -- Don't get me wrong, I like being deaf, and it doesn't stop me thinking "Why did God do this" instead because I know afterlife I will be able to hear again.

 

Suffering exists because sin exists, but God is not absent, even in suffering, and as much as we feel it is often pointless or malevolent against us, we don't see the whole picture. Suffering is not good, but God can use even the actions of evil people to accomplish something good. Even the original sins of Adam and Eve were this way; they were horrible and resulted in suffering for the entire universe, but even through this God used this as a way to give us mercy we would never have needed had we remained perfect, blessing that is much more than we deserve and even sacrifice of his own son that would not have been necessary if there was no sin committed in the first place. God allows suffering in the present, and he can use this suffering to strengthen faith, bring to faith, or even as an opportunity to provide a blessing that the suffering ones don't deserve.

 

21 hours ago, Shuruia said:

<snip>

 

Your reaction against Hell and divine judgment is misplaced, you're reacting against a Dantean Hell, wherein, Hell is the choice of a free person against being an image bearing creature, a "no" to existing as a human, essentially.

 

I explained above about suffering. 

There's a verse based on evil:

Quote

Romans 1:18-20 ESV

God's Wrath on Unrighteousness

¹⁸ For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. known about God is plain to  For what can be¹⁹ them, because God has shown it to them. ²⁰ For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world,^[a] in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

1

 

I won't be convincing you to return to your previous faith you've had; after all, you've made up your mind (Based on our conversations over steam). Plus, Catholic Church may be interesting, but it's a little confusing for me because I believe the opposite they do: Sola Scriptura. I'm planning to explore Lutheranism and Methodism soon-ish.

 

---

Regardless, I don't want to turn this thread into a debate, I posted because @Kubnair wanted to know what I thought about this question, and I think the post has already got some questions answered for him. I couldn't answer some of those questions you've asked, Shuruia, but perhaps in near future, I most likely will in Steam chat. I guess that's going to be all for now -- until then, I hope all of you have had a great day today.

[Black 59 / 3,430]

Aww man, it was just getting good. There's more things I would like to reply to but I agree it's best we get back on topic.  Nice seeing a nice calm debate without anyone shitposting or throwing personal insults.

Respect to both parties

[Plexol 41 / 3,309]

The reality is we humans are a spec of dust in a field of sand. We may never know what actually is out there even though mathematically speaking there should be something out there. Whether it be a God, Aliens, or the Flying Spaghetti Monster I don't you don't. A simulation is even in the equation as the hard truth is that we may be little to no importance than someone saving their video game "us". I do believe that there may be a higher being out there, though I don't know what or who. Discovery is still out there through Religion, Science and the Earth itself no one should give up on what they believe every belief is possible through dimensions and also different. Of course, if the belief of dimensions is true that is. This is my favorite subject because it brings intellectual minds together in one debate and controversy.

Edited September 29, 2017 by Plexol
What is reality?