0 Ping

[willywilson 199 / 5,565]

So I have seen a lot of people complain about 0 ping, before I get on my high horse and start up a shit storm in the admin chat, or annoy vauff with more pms of my opinion on 0 ping, I wanted to know what the community thought of the plugin. 

 

p.s. I was inspired by zombieden's poll: https://bbs.zombieden.cn/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=68107&extra=&highlight=0ping&page=1 just for full disclose they deed it first

 

Edit: This is not a poll on whether it gets removed or not, just to see where everyone stands. 

Edited February 29, 2020 by willywilson

[willywilson 199 / 5,565]

My issues with the plugin:

 

• Since it was added, I find myself teleporting around sometimes, which is dreadful and can kill you
• Some things are and some things aren't compensated
  • i.e. lasers on mist and ridorana so you might assume 1 laser is compensated and jump late and die because it wasn't compensated
• Maps weren't balanced for lag compensated bosses, so they die a lot easier with compensation, making maps easier
• Should we really trust my good friend botox? remember .ru?

[Vauff 965 / 16,976]

23 minutes ago, willywilson said:

• Since it was added, I find myself teleporting around sometimes, which is dreadful and can kill you

The plugin does not touch player movement at all, this is placebo.

 

23 minutes ago, willywilson said:

• Some things are and some things aren't compensated
  • i.e. lasers on mist

This was already fixed by increasing the compensated entities count.

 

23 minutes ago, willywilson said:

• Should we really trust my good friend botox? remember .ru?

Everything is open source. Should also be noted we run plenty of other code from botox on the server.

Edited February 29, 2020 by Vauff

[WarpedCakez 217 / 5,360]

In a perfect world, 0 ping for all players sounds wonderful. No one player gets an advantage for living closer to the physical server which will greatly help those from outside the US. Considering the current admin team treats the server like a global server, this would be a no brainer to add.

 

HOWEVER...

 

I do not believe that the plugin in its current state is not ready for public use. Lasers will randomly decide not to compensate for lag, killing many players. The disable feature randomly will decide to compensate for lasers when it shouldn't. It is very hard to trust a plugin that every laser will work exactly as it should. I heard rumors that Unloze is also considering removing it until it is fully finished.

 

Now for some personal bias on why I dislike 0 ping. When I am jumping lasers, I value instant feedback rather than delayed feedback. When you miss a 0 ping laser, there is no telling how or why you died unless you record it and go frame by frame to see exactly the moment you should have jumped. That's fucking stupid. I would much rather know, oh, I died before I fully jumped, I was late or I just died while falling down, I was early. I went on to PSE to play Ridorana and at some point they had to disable the lag comp on the server because it was causing crashes. I was jumping 200 ping lasers just fine. I only missed one jump because of a slight mistime and I knew exactly why I died when I did. I even timed a jump on a crouch on ex 1 (which you can do) with 200 ping so the excuse of "I cant jump lasers on 200 ping its unplayable" is weak imo. You are playing on a server that's hosted in the US. You should expect to have high ping.

 

Another problem I have is how 0 ping affects timing across players who have high ping and who don't. No US player has 0 ping naturally so we have to also change our timings by a tiny amount rather than the 200 ping players who have a larger timing change. Assuming a normal US player has 50 ping, It is MUCH easier to change a timing by 0.2 seconds than 0.05 seconds. If you were to assume most players have 60 FPS, that means 200 ping players jump 12 frames later and 50 ping has to jump 3 frames from what they are used to. It's even less time if you usually have worse FPS or lower ping. I do not want to change my timings by 3 frames from what I'm used to because some 200 ping player cannot just jump later like they have been for the past 10 years (or however long Mako Reactor had lasers for I don't remember or care the exact time).

 

TL:DR: I do not like how 0 ping hurts NA players and benefits overseas players who are already used to jumping earlier.

Edited February 29, 2020 by WarpedCakez
Changed later in TLDR to earlier as you need to jump earlier if you have higher ping

[asdfasdfxcv 82 / 2,298]

not like this post matter any thing

 

[1mpact 107 / 3,838]

Jumping lasers with 200 ping isn't unplayable (using the direct definition of the word) but it makes some maps incredibly hard: luck matters, tyranny2, chaos, cosmo (without relying on rng) and ridonara just to name a few. Sure high ping players can beat these maps (chaos lvl 2 idk) but we're at a huge disadvantage and unless you've played these maps a huge amount its unlikely you'll win with high ping.

 

Of course we're used to jumping earlier but (almost all) high ping players are very willing to adapt to "0 ping" because it will make maps far easier in the long term if not the short term. I understand the argument of changing your timings a little bit (for US players) can be difficult but changing timing jumps for 200+ ping to 0 is harder coming from experience with everything from 30 to 300 ping on ze. Having played on an Australian server with 30 ping I find no difference between how I timed reactions there to how I time reactions to 0 ping. 

 

 

In regards to the boss balancing, I'll use the predator boss as an example before 0 ping it would indeed take longer to kill and therefore be a harder boss. This is obviously because ping didn't allow player's bullets to connect with the boss as much as they should have which was a huge advantage for low ping players, not to mention how the boss killed high ping players from large distances. Yes bosses like this are easier but this is because everyone has a fair chance now to enjoy the boss fight, and hp could be increased if it gets way too easy on some maps. "i got 3rd highest damage with 150 ping, just lead your shots idiot" is an argument some players may give which is just silly. 

 

Most importantly new players will be able to enjoy the game mode straight away without learning lessons like having to lead their shots or react to lasers early the hard way which will not only help them but also help the team. 

 

I understand if you have low ping already you will be inclined to vote against "0 ping" because you already have it easy but before coming to a decision please take high ping players into consideration. From the way some players blame it its as if they were invincible before the plugin's inception. 

 

TL:DR - some maps were very hard without 0 ping, bosses were harder to shoot and new players would die due to their ping, please consider how advantageous this is for high ping players.

 

 

Edited March 2, 2020 by 1mpact

[Botulin 5 / 0]

6 hours ago, willywilson said:

Since it was added, I find myself teleporting around sometimes, which is dreadful and can kill you

The plugin does not teleport you at all

 

6 hours ago, willywilson said:

i.e. lasers on mist and ridorana so you might assume 1 laser is compensated and jump late and die because it wasn't compensated

This was fixed

 

6 hours ago, willywilson said:

Maps weren't balanced for lag compensated bosses, so they die a lot easier with compensation, making maps easier

Negev makes bosses far more easier than 0 ping ever could and yet we still allow it

6 hours ago, willywilson said:

Should we really trust my good friend botox? remember .ru?

Like half of the plugins on the server are made by Botox, even if they removed his name from it, the code is also open source too which means it can be verified to not contain any malicious code

 

[DUSTY 170 / 4,093]

I live close to server and was apparently dodging lasers too early. This plugin only assists those with high ping and if you are NA you should disable immediately.

[donchill 81 / 4,900]

the disable feature needs to be fixed.

in its current state its just like warpedcakez said.

 

 

[Aurora is smelly 192 / 5,018]

14 hours ago, 1mpact said:

makes some maps incredibly hard: luck matters

That’s not true at all I’ve only seen Koreans manage to almost beat luck on gfl. 
Also I dislike 0ping cause I can’t disable it. At this point you are basically forcing players to use 0ping because without it I sometimes end up like cure. I get it 0ping lasers cool but I’d rather play with my ping that I put a lot of hours in ze learning. 

rip cure 1978-2020

Edited March 1, 2020 by Banjo Kazooie

[Eaze 1 / 1,693]

We should all go play on lan together. Probelm Solved 😎

[willywilson 199 / 5,565]

On 2/29/2020 at 1:46 PM, Vauff said:

The plugin does not touch player movement at all, this is placebo.

 

This was already fixed by increasing the compensated entities count.

 

Everything is open source. Should also be noted we run plenty of other code from botox on the server.

 

'fixed'

 

https://youtu.be/AXD0AY8e7Bc?t=14

 

[xen 45 / 3,089]

15 hours ago, willywilson said:

 

'fixed'

 

https://youtu.be/AXD0AY8e7Bc?t=14

 

That was taken completely out of context. He meant the fix was for the entity limit which ze_mist kept hitting causing some attacks to not be compensated.

As for that video, it looks like a server demo which might explain what happened. ze_surf_bona has really fat laser triggers so he probably stood up too early and touched it. Now if that was a client demo then it indeed does look bugged. It would help if we know which version of the plugin was installed at the time, as it has received a few updates over the last few days in an attempt to fix the known issues.

 

On 3/1/2020 at 12:19 AM, WarpedCakez said:

Now for some personal bias on why I dislike 0 ping. When I am jumping lasers, I value instant feedback rather than delayed feedback. When you miss a 0 ping laser, there is no telling how or why you died unless you record it and go frame by frame to see exactly the moment you should have jumped. That's fucking stupid.

It's really stupid both ways when you think about it. At a high ping, you can die even though you are far above the laser or have crouched well before it arrives, because an invisible trigger is somewhere ahead of what you see, which is made worse by your inputs themselves being delayed as well. The way I see it, with lagcomp, I can at least make the connection between the fact that I touched a laser and the fact that I died. I can clearly see what happened and what my mistake was. Unless a map spams lasers like crazy, it's easy to see that the one that just passed me is the one that killed me, even at 300+ ping.

As for map balancing: Yes, maps were balanced without lag compensation in mind. Of course they are, lag compensation didn't exist back then. From my understanding, bosses are balanced by using an initial guess for HP values and then fine-tuning as the map gets played on servers (usually with diverse populations having all kinds of pings). However, this simply means that those maps can be stripper fixed to account for lagcomp; it's just a matter of increasing a few numbers. To me this is one of the weaker arguments because it shows that lagcomp is working exactly as intended with bosses. It's also very counter-intuitive that you have to lead your shots against moving boxes but not players pre-lagcomp.

 

In my opinion I'd love for the plugin _{(or really just the laser portion since that's where all the trouble comes from)} to be disabled until it's fixed. But any and all testing on private dev servers, being ideal environments, had literally no issues whatsoever; yet on actual servers, well, you can see what's going on. Removing the plugin from all servers means it will never get truly fixed because any fix attempts will eventually have to be tested on public servers one way or another. Another solution would be to get a large group of players to test it on dev servers, but I seriously doubt such a group can exist, let alone have the patience needed. In the end it's up to communities to decide whether to add lagcomp or not, I simply want it to have a chance as long as it can potentially be perfected.

Edited March 3, 2020 by xen

[Neiva 38 / 2,017]

Dying with it enabled can be very frustrating;

-Did I jump too early / late?

-Is this working correctly?

You don't get any clarification and are left puzzled which is why many people dislike the plugin and would prefer a more "natural" state.  It's very hard to trust the plugin, but perhaps we are just bad and need to learn the jump timings.

Personally I've seen it work well at times, but other times very questionable. Hard to say.

 

This clip here, 0 ping was definitely enabled as I double checked during the round by toggling it, along with checking the recording later. I cannot "accidently" hit my bind either, it's on the numpad of my keyboard. Perhaps there is an issue of toggling it too many times, or even once per round might cause an issue.

 

 

Edited March 3, 2020 by Neiva

[xen 45 / 3,089]

6 hours ago, Neiva said:

Dying with it enabled can be very frustrating;

-Did I jump too early / late?

-Is this working correctly?

You don't get any clarification and are left puzzled which is why many people dislike the plugin and would prefer a more "natural" state.  It's very hard to trust the plugin, but perhaps we are just bad and need to learn the jump timings.

Personally I've seen it work well at times, but other times very questionable. Hard to say.

 

This clip here, 0 ping was definitely enabled as I double checked during the round by toggling it, along with checking the recording later. I cannot "accidently" hit my bind either, it's on the numpad of my keyboard. Perhaps there is an issue of toggling it too many times, or even once per round might cause an issue.

You jumped at the correct time, perfect for lagcomp, but this one laser was not lag compensated to you hence the instant (rather than delayed) death. This is the one bug that makes me want laser lagcomp disabled until it gets fixed. It's really frustrating because no matter how long I try on a test server, it just never happens. I also experienced that bug myself on the day lagcomp got added here.

[FierceG 1 / 318]

[gkuo88 67 / 2,820]

Thats real rich coming from the manager who forced his dogshit settings on the css community and then killed the most popular css server within a half a year.

[Neiva 38 / 2,017]

21 hours ago, xen said:

You jumped at the correct time, perfect for lagcomp, but this one laser was not lag compensated to you hence the instant (rather than delayed) death. This is the one bug that makes me want laser lagcomp disabled until it gets fixed. It's really frustrating because no matter how long I try on a test server, it just never happens. I also experienced that bug myself on the day lagcomp got added here.

 

Thanks, now I know what to look for! Twice now I have been effected in not a lot of time, a shame. Hopefully this can be fixed.

 

[Chewie2k 103 / 3,801]

as long as i can disable it i don't mind it