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Just To Clarify...

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Posted  Edited by Z1galord

A majority of what I'm going to say I've already DMed @sabbethinizer, so this will, maybe, be a tl;dr for him.

Gonna try to be somewhat organized with this post. 


Let's start with recent events. What happened with the server yesterday/today? Well, thanks to @Cryotheum for being a legend and somewhat fixing what was wrong, but recently there was an update for Gmod, I think yesterday? Well thanks to that update modifying obj_player files in the base gamemode, it fucked with the server, messing up and creating errors for our ZS's game files. You might think to yourself "Wait Z1ga, you're retarded, because Sunrust and FWKZT was unaffected". Well sir, you're correct about the former, but I can confirm that my dedicated server, as well as the main server, in some way I can't explain, broke. (Cryo if you read this can you elaborate maybe? I tapped out awhile ago). I know some players might've thought it was K2, well it wasn't


Now, let's talk about K2nod himself. Now, I can't speak for him entirely, however, I know some of what's going on in his daily life to clarify some things. First and foremost, K2's work schedule lately has been 12 hour shifts  Tuesday-Friday. I know what you're gonna say, "Z1ga, he has 3 days, in addition to  after work to work on the server". Now, I don't know about you guys, but I wouldn't, and I did because I work 9.5 hour shifts Mon-Wed, want to get on the server after working a 12 fucking hour shift. As for the 3 days difference, man's has a personal life maybe :lenny: who knows. 


There is one undeniable fact however, and War and I both agree on this. K2 has been negligent towards the server. Right now, Pyros is doing something(?) to remedy this situation so we can atleast do something about this. Now, as for ALL of the suggestions. @Warceus being the man, myth, and legend himself, has compiled a large list of I would say 95% of the suggestions given to the forums, discord, through his DMs, and through the server itself. The list is hidden to the public, because it's just for us Admins, but I'll post screenshots of it at the bottom of the post if you'd like to take a gander. What War and I have decided to do is, War continuously adds to the list that he hears is new, and then I maybe work on it if I feel like it. Is it our job? No. Are we doing it cause we care about the server? You're damn right.


Let's talk about the Senior Admin team for a bit. War and I. You guys might feel angry/restless because our server can be much better than it actually is. And you have every right to feel that way. However, War and I are both stressed as is, because we both are taking the brunt of this player anger. With the constant DMs to War, and the constant mentioning of the same suggestions, or whenever a player talks shit about K2 infront of me, it's putting pressure on the both of us because War feels like he can't do shit(inexperienced with Lua), and I feel pressured to fix things when I can't even add them to the Test Server fully. Not only that, but it's now the Senior Admin's job to largely manage Forum Content(correct me if I'm wrong, but that's how we've been doing it). And what doesn't help, is when somebody puts a suggestion out there, and it turns into a shit post from all the upset players. If you've seen that our Division Leader @Pyros has locked/hidden certain recent content, it's because myself and Pyros have agreed(or not cause he's my bitch kappa) that the content posted is not only relevant, but potentially toxic.


That's all I really got, hopefully something can be fixed with these lack of updates today, and please, if you have a response, if it's deemed somewhat toxic, I'd rather have this post be locked. This post was mean't to inform people of ZS's current situation, not be a shit-show post for Shire or someone to ruin. 



There's more, but I don't feel like posting 4 screenshots

Edited by Z1galord


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I don't think there is much of a way for me to say this with out it coming off rudely, but I'll try.


Arguing that staff members are "stressed" or "don't have the time / desire to work for the server" are pretty poor excuses. Players will get upset at people that they don't feel represent them, in this case being k2nod. I've played on ZS for a little over a week, every single day, for several hours at a time, and the only staff members I have seen on are Auralanity, DOOMSlayer, and black man. Maybe I missed other ones when they got on, but that's my experience as a new(er) regular player. My personal opinion is that if you do not have the time or energy to dedicate to the server, you should not be managing it. Managing a server requires you to be engaged with the players and without that the players lose (or never gain) a sense of respect for the role.


I wouldn't be saying this if I didn't have experience with it, either. For background, I was a manager twice on the same RP server a few years ago. The first time I was demoted for not doing my job effectively, and learning from that, I kept manager the second time for much longer and resigned when I felt I wasn't able to dedicate as much time as I'd like to the server.


The bottom line is that there really is no excuse for the behavior that's being reported by the community. If you're feeling stressed or don't have the time to commit to the server, step down and let someone with the time to do it take over. Not only will this solve the dispute the players have with managers like k2nod not representing them, it will be more respectable than the utter shitstorm that's currently enveloping the ZS section of this forum.


I think the master suggestion list is a great idea, and I like that. Making this list public would be a great reassurance to the players, I think, because it lets them know that their ideas are heard. However, the "I maybe work on it if I feel like it" is either a very poor choice of words at best, or an admission of negligence at worst. If you want to quell the outrage of the community, perhaps implementing some of the simpler changes (i.e. Resupply box timer) would be a show of good faith that the server is being worked on. Saying "we have a list of suggestions" doesn't tell anyone anything, because it's a non-answer, because it doesn't confirm or deny the contents of the suggestion.


I have a great idea for a way to do the suggestion thread, actually. Make a Google speadsheet, set it to "anyone with link can view", give senior administration, managers, etc. access to edit, and put everything into the spreadsheet. Then, make a format for confirming changes that were made, are in progress, or are unrealistic / not feasible / not desired by the community, and call it a day. Now you have a big, publicly visible database of all the changes you plan to make. Maybe even categorize them by difficulty or priority! This way, the players know that their voices are being heard and they know what is or isn't being worked on.

Even better, every time you update the server, make a changelog thread! This way, you have a concise list of everything that changed so that GFL members aren't left wondering what changed and what didn't, and also an easy way to revert changes if they are problematic. Not only that, people will get excited for updates when they know they're happening. "Oooh, what'll k2 add this time? maybe he'll add Zombine back in, or maybe he'll nerf Tickle Monster!" Catch my drift? This is another way to form that connection with the community, too.


Either upper administration starts to regularly update the server, an actual developer is brought onto the team to do it instead, or the server will die. Those are effectively the three options. Without regular (and by regular I mean like weekly or bi-weekly) updates to optimize and balance the gameplay and to rotate maps, the server begins to feel very stale.


Long story short, I feel that the majority of the community outrage right now stems from a disconnect in priorities from the players and upper echelons of administration. Obviously I'm not talking about regular in-game administrators, because they don't have the authority to make server changes; I'm talking specifically about managers and Senior administrators. Right now management seems to be a largely unseen force, and players don't respect that. If you don't have the time to get onto your own server and figure out what's wrong with it for yourself, you should probably resign and let fresh blood take over the reins. That's not to say you disappear entirely, either. You could just as easily take a break from GFL for a month and come back, and with prior experience in the community as a member of higher administration, you'll probably be admitted back into the staff team with very few questions asked.

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@DessertOverlord Honestly, from the bottom of my heart, I appreciate these words. No malicious intent, poking at staff, just pure facts.


I'd also like to make clear, Senior Admins don't have much authority make changes to the server either. Sure we can change in-game things, like ULX commands and permissions, but we don't have access to server files, or the server control panel. Furthermore, what @Warceus and I are doing, in terms of making a list or working on getting things implemented, were doing this not because we have to, but because we want to. 


I honestly like that spreadsheet idea, so I think we'll do that from here on. 


Now as for the disconnect, I can 100% pinpoint why that is. It's because the current ZS Admin team isn't respected enough on the server as is. 


We'll start with K2nod. K2 played on ZS regularly way back in 2014ish, back in the Kyptonik/Sentinel era. So for someone like myself, or War, he's not really new. However for someone like Shire, or Wow, or Geggy(Not calling anyone out specifically just the first couple names that came to mind) he's some random who afks when he's on and hasn't played ZS before.


As for the rest of the admin team, I think this admin team is our best one yet. However, it's because of our unique ideology of "As long as it doesn't disrupt the flow of the game, it's fine". This one is all my fault, because it's what I genuinely believe, however that might have been a bad approach since certain players think they can just walk all over the admin team because of it.


All in all, I believe both sides are at fault here. Staff partially for not being as transparent as we should be.


But, I think certain players' fault for A: not giving enough respect to the admins as is(that's a whole other story I won't delve into), and B: Asking more questions. Like "Hey DOOM what's K2 up to?" Instead of "K2 is a piece of shit who never gets on, and when he is on, he's afk". But for now, atleast for myself cause I can't speak for all of them, will try to be somewhat transparent.


As for K2's situation, he recently informed me, and I'm sorry K2 but they have to know, is currently working 12 hours a day on the Frontline fighting COVID-19. 


Should he be managing if that's the case? Debatable but it's being worked on. Someone will fill his spot temporarily, and all will be right soon.


Was way longer than I wanted it to be, but oh well.


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Posted  Edited by DessertOverlord

@Z1galord I appreciate the feedback on the issue.


I see, that was a misinterpretation on my part. I can safely assume, then, that the only one with access to the server's files are Managers and anyone above them.


I agree with your point that the players (especially newer ones like myself) have no real respect for the administrative team. I have respect for someone like Aura or Death because they get on and enforce the rules (I've seen them deal with instances of propclaiming each) whereas I have no real respect for administrators or managers like k2nod or (respectfully) yourself, because all I've seen is the odd "eat shit, idiot, relax" from k2nod. I have marginally more respect for yourself because I've seen you active on the forums now in an attempt to quell the outrage, but my point about respect still stands. I can't speak for everyone, but I derive respect from actions and not a colorful tag on a forum or in-game. I have yet to see k2nod take any real action yet, and that is why I do not respect him (and I feel the community does not either for the same reason).


To your point about COVID-19, I understand that he is busy, but I will reiterate my point from my last reply: if he is otherwise occupied, he should resign or at least file for a leave of absence and name someone as a temporary replacement.


It seems silly to say, as we're ultimately just a bunch of people on computers playing video games, but if you want to manage a GMod server and be respected, it's basically a part-time job with no pay. And while I appreciate that people like yourself or Pyros or k2nod are willing to contribute your time to doing a sometimes rather unfun job for no compensation like this, at a certain point it begins to hurt more than it helps to keep some people involved if they cannot contribute.


I do agree to a certain extent that some players have gone a bit far with the whole lynch mob regime, but underneath the sea of outrage are some valid arguments. At this point, I think you've figured out that what I'm attempting to do here is to articulate that outrage in a manner that is as unbiased and as emotionless as possible.


Also, I'm not sure I fully grasp your idea of "As long as it doesn't disrupt the flow of the game, it's fine." Perhaps that's because it's not how I see the situation, so let me expand. I believe that the lack of change in the server is disrupting the flow of the game. There is a laundry list of changes people want to happen, but the one I find most pressing right now is the Tickle Monster nerf debate. I won't delve into a long essay about how unfun it is to get tossed around like a bean bag in the back of cade fighting against him, that's a topic for its own thread. My point stands though -- a lack of change can also hamper the flow of the game, so much so that the "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" mentality doesn't apply here. 


This is probably another point we'd end up disagreeing on, but I'm more a fan of proactivity in these situations. Rather than waiting on players to stir up a shitstorm about problems, staff should be playing on the server and figuring out what things they enjoy least about the server, and then ask the community: Do you think this would be a good change for our server?


Let's say you were in the match I was playing not an hour before this reply. Our entire front cade is rendered useless by Tickle's ability to slap people's shit in with fast, overly long-range attacks paired with the mobility of a regular zombie that makes it impossible to land a clean barrage of shots on him and impossible to repair anything. You may have said "Wow, that match was really unfair, the zombies completely shut that cade down. Maybe the Tickle Monster is a little too strong." Boom, poll up -- leave, say, a 48-72 hour window for voting, get your result, and now you know the community dislikes Tickle in its current state. Now you put up a second one -- this time a straight up suggestion thread. "How do we rebalance Tickle?" Maybe supply a few options in the body of the post, but also leave it open to replies so that people can pitch their own ideas. Now, we place the "Tickle Rebalance" into the medium- or high-priority section of the update spreadsheet.


In this scenario, from only one match, you've now figured out what issues the community wants fixed, how they want it fixed, how to prioritize it (Maybe add a poll to the rebalance thread for priority level. How much do they value that rebalance over other changes, like the resupply timer?) and now everyone in the community who wants to know can know.


Obviously some people will be ignorant. Some people will complain. This is par for the course for anything that involves human thought. However, a process like this could stop waves of people like the group of "revolutionaries" from trying to steamroll the debate.


That's the end of my most recent essay on the issue. Once more, I appreciate your thoughts and feedback on my previous post. I hope my insight can be of use.


Edit: Slight rewording to remove unecessary insult.

Edited by DessertOverlord

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Posted  Edited by Cryotheum - Edit Reason: Fixed odd highlighting in quote
21 hours ago, Z1galord said:

(Cryo if you read this can you elaborate maybe? I tapped out awhile ago)

So, I have no information that is 100% exact, but from the dozens of script errors @Pyros sent me, I assume that some addon/script which is now outdated as it likely was using deprecated functions (I also assume this is either a script part of the gamemode or the addon "zlistaddon" as Pyros told me addons/zlistaddon/lua/autorun/hooksforit.lua errored). When these deperecated functions get called, it will attempt to call the local function under that name and if it fails then the function global and if that still fails then it spits out an error ("Attempt to call global blah blah blah..."). So, there is a good chance one of these functions are getting run either inside gamemodes/zombiesurvival/gamemode/init.lua (which I will just call init.lua) or one of it's includes errors and stops the code's execution.

Now, the script errors we were recieving were "Calling net.Start with unpooled message name!" which makes it obvious that util.AddNetworkString was not getting called with the message name provided to net.Start. But, after Pyros sent me the same script error a fourth time, and all of them erroring at different lines, I had to assume that none of the messages getting used were pooled. So, I looked through the code, and found in init.lua, the function which pools ALL of the message names (GM:AddNetworkStrings) was not getting called. Like I explained in the above paragraph, an error was stopping the code from running, and it happenned to stop the code before GM:AddNetworkStrings was even called. Because of this, any time net.Start was called in the gamemode, it would error as the message name was not pooled. So, I just copied the contents of GM:AddNetworkStrings as a temporary fix and sent it to Pyros so he could put it in the server's lua autorun. In order to make a proper fix, I would need logs and the modified gamemode (or just access ot the servers files :p) to locate what is erroring then I can create a proper patch. It is also likely that the mod creator is experiencing this error, and that they will push out an update to patch it, but I have a feeling that we won't be seeing it for a bit.

Edited by Cryotheum
Fixed odd highlighting in quote

Why spend 20 minutes doing something tedious when you can spend 2 hours failing to automate it instead?

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Posted  Edited by k2nod


17 hours ago, DessertOverlord said:


Iwhereas I have no real respect for administrators or managers like k2nod or (respectfully) yourself, because all I've seen is the odd "eat shit, idiot, relax" from k2nod. 


Bro you've been playing for a week chill. As if everything I've done for the server is forgotten because I'm not 24/7 for a week.

Edited by k2nod

(Private: k2nod) Russell Crowe: are you using hyperscrolll



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