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Harakoni

CWRP Moderation Discord Overhaul

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22 minutes ago, Harakoni said:

However, hoisted in the sidebar are roles of importance directly related to the server - Manager, Senior Admin, Admin,

This is pretty much the thing I would love to see in most division discords, I see no reason for mods to be hoisted above Managers when most people that need help they contact the person that is higher on the list, and some servers the amount of mods online sometimes makes the Server Manager role to be not shown unless you scroll.

 

As for the rest of the changes, I believe keeping an active communication between the Mod team and admins/managers to be the best to solve issues. It seems that both sides (Mod team and Management of the server) got different ideas and/or different views on how permissions and how the whole deal would be.


 

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@Ash-'s opinion on gmod: 

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I like some of the ideas and others not so much. We do the bot command bans because it bans across all GFL discord’s not just one. It’s also not that hard nor slow. Also for the official I kind of see where you’re coming from, but all in all you’re still apart of GFL. In being so comes with some things like a moderation team. I can see something maybe like five admin+ or senior admin+ perms. The problem would be is if someone started to abuse there powers. Then since it isn’t an official discord someone could think I can’t get help since it’s not official. I’m not saying that would happen but I’m saying it could, someone thinking that they can’t contact anyone since it’s not official and it’s being ran by the staff. I’m also very lazy and don’t feel like typing out the good things lol, if you ever wanted to hop into a voice call sometime I have some great additions to this I could think of. If done right though I believe it could work really well. Like I said in a voice channel or call, or just DM. When it’s not 5 in the morning maybe I’ll add some of the things I did like, like what pyros said, along with some other things I liked in this. You have a great rest of your day or night!


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Current

CWRP Admin
Discord Admin

Forum Admin

Shadow COL

Shadow Assassin
Jedi Knight

Jedi Shadow 2

 

Former

AWP 24/7 Admin

 

 

 

 

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On 5/7/2020 at 10:56 AM, Cambr said:

The problem would be is if someone started to abuse there powers.

I trust the admins more than the mods regarding this. This is something people in GFL always bring up when they are afraid they'll lose power over something.
I really don't think it's a valid point at all seeing that admins are trusted by their manager and mods are trusted by their leader. It's the same thing.

I already spoke about what Koni has put here to some people.

In the process of getting mods into the discord they were to assist us with moderation and not do (what seemed like) a hostile takeover.
When someone goes to assist it is not to strip the powers of people already doing the job and are doing it well but to learn their ways and behaviour in the discord and assist with the moderation tools we didn't have at the time.

I'm also going to openly state that everytime a server makes a discord and bring in the mod team they do this hostile takeover and either moderate too heavily or not at all. I really think that the CWRP discord should be disconnected from the GFL moderation mentality and/or permissions to be fully restored to the staff within the discord. As Koni said, we have less moderation than we used to before the merge. (And no, we don't want all staff to apply for mod just to be able to moderate OUR discord. People don't want more roles and personally I wouldn't want one with such bad reputation).


Nerd

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Achievements

My personal intention wasn't to have my staff team's permissions changed or revoked since the staff need their own power to punish people much like in the server, as well as to keep track of people who have been banned, and so on. We have gone through a vote and there were more +1 to -1, but the discussion got flooded and I didn't really see most of it. I should've put a seperate channel for it, I'm sorry.

I didn't intend for any of this to change and it happened while I was away so I didn't notice/know at first. I wanted the moderation team to come help in terms of moderation since I personally can't train anyone with it (the bot commands and the full list of punishment guidelines spread across all official Discords), while still having my staff team keep their own permissions as well.

 

I personally am more in agreeance with the first suggestion, but will go through with what is deemed necessary for the Discord. I am truly sorry for any issues that have risen between the staff and moderation team, as well as the Discord itself.


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Former | too many things to fit in a signature

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Guest
Posted  Edited by Guest - Edit Reason: changed they to we
On 5/6/2020 at 8:55 PM, Pyros said:

This is pretty much the thing I would love to see in most division discords, I see no reason for mods to be hoisted above Managers when most people that need help they contact the person that is higher on the list, and some servers the amount of mods online sometimes makes the Server Manager role to be not shown unless you scroll.

Pyros and I agreed that this makes sense and the discord mod roles have been unhoisted.

 

On 5/6/2020 at 8:27 PM, Harakoni said:

I personally am entirely unsure where the issue with admins as moderators appears - If I can trust them as people while i'm a Senior Admin, I believe they should be trusted enough to moderate their own home turf.

I can explain this one pretty well.

 

It has to do with the how I've seen suspected ban evasion handled by server admins that were just given mod perms in the past just because they were senior admins. There was no proof other than "i know it's (banned account), they dm'd me and said they were joining on an alt" this happened more times than i've been able to count. When I've refused to ban said "ban evading account" I became the bad guy in the server admins eyes for not shooting from the hip and banning an account without evidence that wasn't breaking any rules other than existing. 

 

If server staff had moderation perms and they were abusing the moderation perms, it becomes an issue of who handles that abuse. I am in charge of moderation but I'm not in charge of the server admin that's abusing with moderation perms, and the server manager isn't in charge of moderation but is in charge of the server admin. How does that get handled quickly and efficiently if one of us isn't there to come to a decision on how to handle the situation? I'm not letting that happen when a discord ban from cwrp means that person gets banned across all other official gfl discords where that person could be a regular and actually enjoy spending time.

 

This brings up another "complaint" because it's not based on anything other than certain individuals attempting to create an issue from a non-issue. These certain individuals claim that mods are inactive, don't respond to pings to do mod work, and don't know the server or how it runs. This is false for a number of reasons.

  1. These individuals avoid pinging mods to allow issues to escalate beyond what they initially were so they can say "mods are inactive, remove them".
  2. I accepted mod applications from a few server staff, (game masters and admins) and I plan on accepting more cwrp staff in the future. A group of discord mods even started playing on the game server itself trying to integrate into the cwrp community and learn how things work.
  3. Every time mods are pinged there's usually at least two or three of them that respond almost instantly, like they're waiting to do work. They just need to know where there's stuff that needs done because you can't watch literally everything at once.
7 hours ago, Worgee said:

In the process of getting mods into the discord they were to assist us with moderation and not do (what seemed like) a hostile takeover.

I'm not sure what we did that was hostile but please enlighten me so I can attempt to fix it. But I do know that quite a few server staff were extremely hostile towards myself and my team for something that we had no vote in. If you didn't want the official mod team to come in you should have explained your reasoning better and convinced your fellow staff and your server managers.

 

 

 

I'm still unsure of why you guys keep bringing this up, it's not your decision to make and @Pachimo, @Rick, and myself have discussed most of these issues at great length already.

Edited by Guest
changed they to we

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It makes me sad to see the Moderation team get a bad rep. I've said this time and time again but I truly believe the Moderation team is excellent in terms of consistency, response time and communication. Sure, some outliers have existed, nothing is perfect. I'd consider this situation to be one of those outliers. Miscommunication between Moderation leadership and Server staff has created a lot of frustration, leading to even worsened communication, making things even worse. As pointed out by @Pachimo:

4 hours ago, Pachimo said:

We have gone through a vote and there were more +1 to -1, but the discussion got flooded and I didn't really see most of it. I should've put a seperate channel for it, I'm sorry (...) I wanted the moderation team to come help in terms of moderation since I personally can't train anyone with it (the bot commands and the full list of punishment guidelines spread across all official Discords), while still having my staff team keep their own permissions as well.

If the goal all along was to just "teach" current Admins how to use our bots, that would not warrant becoming "Official", which was agreed upon, nor would it happen at all. Our bots, forums, etc. are all used by the Official Moderation team only. This is due to the fact that all infractions are synced, including bans, which are regularly discussed before occurring in the Teams Discord, to which no Admin has access to. "14 admins" having Moderation ability within a Discord might be more "effective" in terms of coverage and response time, it does not ensure quality or consistency; since the CWRP Discord became Official at least 5 unbans have occurred from the old CWRPs Moderation for being far too harsh or otherwise falsified. I don't believe an unwarranted ban in any other Official Discord has been given in months.

 

To make it terribly clear, I'm not saying "all CWRP Admins are incompetent and therefore cannot be trusted!". Of course not, there was just no real Discord rule/punishment guideline structure given to you by your leadership. This also is not to say that our Moderation system intertwining the Teams Discord, all bots, the Main Discord, the Forums, etc. is the absolute perfect system either, I already said that at the beginning of this response; it's just how it is and I'm under the belief it is better than what an unofficial GFL Discord could achieve... unless if you wanted to self host many bots and develop custom modules for them.

 

I started writing this before @motorsteaks response, so excuse any repeated points, but I do agree with most of what he says, I agree with not displaying Mods, just having them mentionable for "RP reasons" and this:

58 minutes ago, motorsteak said:

This brings up another "complaint" because it's not based on anything other than certain individuals attempting to create an issue from a non-issue. These certain individuals claim that mods are inactive, don't respond to pings to do mod work, and don't know the server or how it runs. This is false for a number of reasons.

  1. These individuals avoid pinging mods to allow issues to escalate beyond what they initially were so they can say "mods are inactive, remove them".
  2. I accepted mod applications from a few server staff, (game masters and admins) and I plan on accepting more cwrp staff in the future. A group of discord mods even started playing on the game server itself trying to integrate into the cwrp community and learn how things work.
  3. Every time mods are pinged there's usually at least two or three of them that respond almost instantly, like they're waiting to do work. They just need to know where there's stuff that needs done because you can't watch literally everything at once.

It really sucks that the Mod team are painted in such a bad light just because of some conflated issues; it's not the fault of the Mods that all of this occurred.

 

My resolution for this situation is simply, if you would like to Moderate... apply for Moderator and adhere to the standards. If us upper-management are totally out of touch, which I obviously don't believe we are, then perhaps other measures e.g. server-specific Moderators or limited/full permissions being given to Admins. Take for example Breach, it was recently integrated to become "Official" and things are going well; communication between the Mod Leader, Mod team, Admin team, Server Managers and others (Xy, I don't know what he'd categorise himself as - Developer.. Manager.. thingy) is great and perhaps that is all is needed here, a conversation to straighten things out and grow that "trust". I don't know how else to do it, if you don't feel trust toward the team, and don't want to integrate with them but the team is actually fine, I really have no other solution.

 

Thanks.


Contact me here or on Discord @Liloz01#9857

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Alright its my time to chip in on this as I am apart of both and honestly most of the time I really do not blame discord moderation but there are somethings I do agree with of course and that is

On 5/6/2020 at 6:27 PM, Harakoni said:

2 - Visual Hierarchical Priority in the Roles List -
Our discord functions as a separate private entity away from core GFL, and is more akin to an extension of the game server than a communal discord - as such, i believe the moderation role hoist should be modified to display what would be important primarily to the users. Take HnS or Prop Hunt's discords for example, each has discord mod and admin roles given to active, trusted members - and do a great job at moderation. However, hoisted in the sidebar are roles of importance directly related to the server - Manager, Senior Admin, Admin, Gamemaster, Commanders, etc. A good quality of life attribute of a discord designed for a server is it's display of server features. When needed, moderator can still be tagged and requested, and it can remain how it is in the list as it is now - it would simply not be locked onto the sidebar location. 
This would avoid issues for people going to mods for server issues, which has happened prior, and give users joining a better and more direct idea of what the server is used for - as mentioned previously, less of a general discord chatroom and more an extension of the server itself.

I agree with this 100% and that's because most of the time people go to the highest they see under Server Manager as most problems occur when they are offline.

 

41 minutes ago, motorsteak said:

This brings up another "complaint" because it's not based on anything other than certain individuals attempting to create an issue from a non-issue. These certain individuals claim that mods are inactive, don't respond to pings to do mod work, and don't know the server or how it runs. This is false for a number of reasons.

  1. These individuals avoid pinging mods to allow issues to escalate beyond what they initially were so they can say "mods are inactive, remove them".
  2. I accepted mod applications from a few server staff, (game masters and admins) and I plan on accepting more cwrp staff in the future. A group of discord mods even started playing on the game server itself trying to integrate into the cwrp community and learn how things work.
  3. Every time mods are pinged there's usually at least two or three of them that respond almost instantly, like they're waiting to do work. They just need to know where there's stuff that needs done because you can't watch literally everything at once.

I can agree with Motor on this as we do get a bad rep for "Not Responding" yet half of the time we aren't even pinged in where it is located and are just told to ban someone without proof is the thing. Even on other GFL discords it's not only CWRP that has the same problem as well I can assure that. Multiple times we have been pinged in the Rust discord with no context behind what is happening and someone is just telling us to ban someone. I would rather be aware first of where the problem is and try to figure it out from there.

Personally this has dragged on for a while and I'm standing with Moderation as they do their job appropriately.

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On 5/6/2020 at 6:55 PM, Pyros said:

As for the rest of the changes, I believe keeping an active communication between the Mod team and admins/managers to be the best to solve issues. It seems that both sides (Mod team and Management of the server) got different ideas and/or different views on how permissions and how the whole deal would be.

This is one thing I forgot to mention and yes communication is key with everything as that's how issues get resolved easier.

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Guest Saizy
Posted  Edited by Saizy
48 minutes ago, Mejilla said:

I want to add even more to this as well in agreeance. Breach discord, in my opinion, was in pretty bad shape. There was absolutely no moderation at all, people behaving in such ways they couldn't in the Official Discords, and even on their own server. Once moderation came in and the discord was made official, a few more events took place that were rule breaking. The thing is, no one pinged mods when the situation was happening. They continued to converse about how Mod Team isn't doing their job. But they were sitting there complaining without us being notified. After noticing this, I spoke to @Xy stating I wish they would utilize pinging Moderators so we know something is going on. Xy agreed, and allowed me to announce the following in the Breach discord:

image.thumb.png.2c38b3e04cb8d84b1fc221f20348494e.png

Since then, Mods have been getting the necessary pings, and I've been getting a fair amount of DMs from members when situations are going on. All it takes is a little notice of what to do, and things will be taken care of. Unfortunately, people complaining about something when they aren't remotely trying to help, isn't very beneficial and it won't get anything done.

 

 

I've noticed several people in different discords state Mods aren't doing their job. I think the statement from people of "Mod Team not doing anything" is quite bullshit in itself. And it's proven many people wrong in a specific discord as well. A hairy situation took place that was quite aids to say the least, but Mods were pinged, and that situation was handled almost immediately. The interactions, help, and communication have to go both ways. Not to restate any of the same points @Liloz01 or @motorsteak said, but I wanted to share more information on my side as a Discord Moderator myself.


To back up Mejilla's statement, 


I am a frequent member of Breach and hope to see it grow. I have went to her time and time again for help and advice against the drama that escalated after the official moderation team was brought in. I truly believe that before we had any moderation in Breach, it was a cancerous filth. The hard 'er' being said everyday, jokes about suicide, favoritism, and the lack of moderation. Mejilla is the only moderator I truly see active in the Breach Discord, and this has helped a lot.

Of course there is still problems that need to be fixed and some toxic people still remain, but I believe in time it will all be sorted out one way or another. I'm truly appreciative of Mejilla's moderation & care, and the GFL Discord Moderation Team. @motorsteak has done a fine job picking & choosing who to be on the team.

Edited by Saizy

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1 hour ago, motorsteak said:

It has to do with the how I've seen suspected ban evasion handled by server admins that were just given mod perms in the past just because they were senior admins. There was no proof other than "i know it's (banned account), they dm'd me and said they were joining on an alt" this happened more times than i've been able to count. When I've refused to ban said "ban evading account" I became the bad guy in the server admins eyes for not shooting from the hip and banning an account without evidence that wasn't breaking any rules other than existing. 

This is in reference to me and nblock alts, I know. 

I'll explain my process of action if it clarifies anything as to how exactly i make the final decision to confirm it's an nblock alt. It's not a guessing game - it's getting as close to confirming every option as possible
Usually what happens is an account will catch my eye - I do not actively look or sort through every account that passes my screen - it can do this in multiple ways;
- The account is new to discord
- The profile name is a play on something i know has happened nblock, or between me and him personally, he has very easy to identify mannerisms 
- I'm informed an admin on HnS has a DM or knows he's alting (Screensharing in another disc, direct confirmation from him to the admin to annoy them deliberately,
- The profile picture is roughly associated or closely related to past experiences i've had with nblock and recent ones

A single one of these is not definitive proof - it just means i know move to a secondary stage of investigation;
- Speech format - If the account has talked, i will review the messages to my past experience and logs from nblock to match mannerisms, key phrases and words. Yes, i analyse the accounts speech, I'm that dedicated.
- Account activity commonalty, Is the account active at the same time as nblock? Does the account go active when he goes idle, vice versa
- Meme posts. Nblock will almost always post some sort of meme but has a selective and very similar sense of humour to me. If the account posts something i find funny, me and nblock have remarked upon in the past, or memes I myself and others have posted in shared discords, I tally it to the list.

Once i have ran down this list, i will begin a third phase of direct interaction - either with nblock or the account. 
- I'll post a meme with direct connection or close connection to me and nblock - and see what the account does. If it goes idle or offline, I tally that on again, if it continues seemingly unphased with no stutter or break in talking speed, i don't.

At this point, i'll turn to others who may have the same suspicions or been tipped off he's alting, and together we will make a final decision to ban or not.

I have ran this process with a total of 12+ account now, in games and discord, and not once has any appealed, gone active in discords i cannot touch the account in after the ban, or attempted to contact me or others. I will repeat what i said at the start; It is not a guessing game. I make sure there's not a mistake.

Now for the actual post -

1 hour ago, motorsteak said:

This brings up another "complaint" because it's not based on anything other than certain individuals attempting to create an issue from a non-issue. These certain individuals claim that mods are inactive, don't respond to pings to do mod work, and don't know the server or how it runs. This is false for a number of reasons.

  1. These individuals avoid pinging mods to allow issues to escalate beyond what they initially were so they can say "mods are inactive, remove them".
  2. I accepted mod applications from a few server staff, (game masters and admins) and I plan on accepting more cwrp staff in the future. A group of discord mods even started playing on the game server itself trying to integrate into the cwrp community and learn how things work.
  3. Every time mods are pinged there's usually at least two or three of them that respond almost instantly, like they're waiting to do work. They just need to know where there's stuff that needs done because you can't watch literally everything at once.

I have seen this happen yes, however It is not me. Where i have been involved, I did ping mods for the first instance and it was sorted - my comments about a lack of speed then was frustration due to their being less than 6 mods at the time for a wide range of GFLs discords.
This second time, where i banned 4 raiders who were spamming nigger, faggot, and other offensive or annoying stuff in a VC and general chats was pre-emptive to halt it. I then immediately tagged mods explaining i banned 4 people for raiding and directed them to mod logs to administer the correct punishment.
The mods are active yes, and my concerns of numbers no longer exist - there's about 9 now in our Discord and of those 4 are heavily involved in the server and subsequently the Discord too, which is a massive benefit compared to the prior 6 with one active within the server.
 

1 hour ago, motorsteak said:

I'm not sure what we did that was hostile but please enlighten me so I can attempt to fix it. But I do know that quite a few server staff were extremely hostile towards myself and my team for something that we had no vote in. If you didn't want the official mod team to come in you should have explained your reasoning better and convinced your fellow staff and your server managers.

A "Hostile Takeover" is not necessarily hostile; it's exact definition is a deliberate change of management without correct consultation of the companies' (in this case discord) members. We as users and staff felt much too rushed into this and had no say as to what we would keep, lose, or add to our permissions - which is where the framing of this as a hostile takeover came from, but in regards to poor communication and adressing not an actual exchange in discord managing.

Thanks for the response and the near immediate integration of the second suggestion. More replies to others will follow soon!

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