Ability to View Applications

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,172]

5 minutes ago, Joshy said:

Weren't applications already visible just a few weeks ago?  I'm confused about the trial period.

I believe they haven't been available for members for few months, I've been server admin for a while and we can see all applications so idk what members can and cant see.. Tbh, I don't think a trial period would change anything, however a few months can be a huge community change, maybe people are less toxic now lol. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by BlazingArson

[harry 495 / 7,788]

1 minute ago, Amelie said:

I believe you can see them now because you are forum mod, Joshy.

this person believes he is the smartest gfl member

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,945]

I can see them now, but a few a weeks ago when I wasn't a forum mod I could still see them.

 

edit:

 

Yeaup.  Became a forum mod November 26th so not even a whole month yet   I think the applications did become more hidden like a few days maybe even a whole week before hand.

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Joshy
Added picture

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,172]

1 minute ago, Joshy said:

I can see them now, but a few a weeks ago when I wasn't a forum mod I could still see them.

if it was that soon then maybe not a trial period. I was under the impression it had been a few months, so I thought it was worth it incase of a slight community shift. But that soon? Nvm

[Amelie 434 / 7,376]

7 minutes ago, BlazingArson said:

if it was that soon then maybe not a trial period. I was under the impression it had been a few months, so I thought it was worth it incase of a slight community shift. But that soon? Nvm

It’s been longer. And the time between shouldn’t matter. None of the points made have been time sensitive. Ex: someone is appealing a ban. The community has shifted. Or does it take more than 3 pages of discussion to show that this change holds heavy weight in the community? 

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,172]

1 minute ago, Amelie said:

The community has shifted. Or does it take more than 3 pages of discussion to show that this change holds heavy weight in the community? 

Idk how long it's been, but if it's only been a couple of weeks, then the community hasn't had time to shift, they just want something back that they were never supposed to have in the first place. If it's been a few months, maybe the community has shifted, and it won't come with increased toxicity towards those who get denied. 
In the end, this is up to the higher ups, and hey, maybe you convinced them more than you have me. I still don't think it is necessary for members to see applications, but that's just my opinion.
This is my last comment though, because I've made my points and we are both basically just repeating ourselves. Thank you for a civil discussion. Have a nice day.

[Amelie 434 / 7,376]

2 minutes ago, BlazingArson said:

Idk how long it's been, but if it's only been a couple of weeks, then the community hasn't had time to shift, they just want something back that they were never supposed to have in the first place. If it's been a few months, maybe the community has shifted, and it won't come with increased toxicity towards those who get denied. 
In the end, this is up to the higher ups, and hey, maybe you convinced them more than you have me. I still don't think it is necessary for members to see applications, but that's just my opinion.
This is my last comment though, because I've made my points and we are both basically just repeating ourselves. Thank you for a civil discussion. Have a nice day.

I agree. Thank you for your debate. I hope you can be convinced of a trial period, if it ever comes down to you being able to vote! 
 

 

For those of you still in the conversation, it has been over 2 months now. So, any change has happened. And I don’t like the future possibilities of continued relinquished transparency.

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,945]

I think the hidden applications thing is very recent.  A "trial" period does not make sense to me since we just got out of the public one.

 

 

It couldn't be any sooner than September 23rd for sure, and I'm pretty sure it was still public for a while after too.  Absolute maximum 3 months if we assume the post above was the last time someone posted on an application?  Just right before I became a forum moderator other applications were still visible.

 

A little more possible evidence even on more recent applications.  Look at how many views those threads got that are allegedly only visible to high tiered staff?  I have to admit I'm pretty skeptical.

 

 

Maybe it would be a fair idea if we gave hidden applications a trial period?

 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Joshy

[Amelie 434 / 7,376]

6 minutes ago, Joshy said:

I think the hidden applications thing is very recent.  A "trial" period does not make sense to me since we just got out of the public one.

 

 

It couldn't be any sooner than September 23rd for sure, and I'm pretty sure it was still public for a while after too.  Absolute maximum 3 months if we assume the post above was the last time someone posted on an application?  Just right before I became a forum moderator other applications were still visible.

 

A little more possible evidence even on more recent applications.  Look at how many views those threads got that are allegedly only visible to high tiered staff?  I have to admit I'm pretty skeptical.

 

 

Maybe it would be a fair idea if we gave hidden applications a trial period?

 

 

The reason for the high number of views is the absolute length they sat on the forums for. The November is the clean up I believe.

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,945]

Do you know of other (successful) places where they make their application public?  The previous places I came from they did not have public applications.  A few places I have visited didn't even have applications... it was by invite only.

[TheJitFace 699 / 18,162]

26 minutes ago, Joshy said:

I think the hidden applications thing is very recent.  A "trial" period does not make sense to me since we just got out of the public one.

 

 

It couldn't be any sooner than September 23rd for sure, and I'm pretty sure it was still public for a while after too.  Absolute maximum 3 months if we assume the post above was the last time someone posted on an application?  Just right before I became a forum moderator other applications were still visible.

 

A little more possible evidence even on more recent applications.  Look at how many views those threads got that are allegedly only visible to high tiered staff?  I have to admit I'm pretty skeptical.

 

 

Maybe it would be a fair idea if we gave hidden applications a trial period?

 

 

Hey that is me in the first image lol. 

[Pyros 1,796 / 30,750]

1 hour ago, Joshy said:

Look at how many views those threads got that are allegedly only visible to high tiered staff?  I have to admit I'm pretty skeptical.

I'm pretty sure that if you refresh your browser or change posts and go back (clicking again on the link) it count as a new view. I can be totally wrong on this though.

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,945]

6 minutes ago, Pyros said:

I'm pretty sure that if you refresh your browser or change posts and go back (clicking again on the link) it count as a new view. I can be totally wrong on this though.

 

I think you're right.  The take away I meant was that hidden applications are a new thing.

[Dominic 135 / 2,013]

I also thought hidden applications were a new thing, but since I didn't catch it being mentioned anywhere in this thread I thought I was imagining things. When exactly was that changed and why? Was it ever announced?

 

 

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,172]

53 minutes ago, Dominic said:

I also thought hidden applications were a new thing, but since I didn't catch it being mentioned anywhere in this thread I thought I was imagining things. When exactly was that changed and why? Was it ever announced?

 

 

It was changed because they were only visible due to an ICP error or something like that. Not sure if it was announced, but doubt it was because they weren't supposed to be able to see it in the first place.

[Amelie 434 / 7,376]

5 hours ago, BlazingArson said:

It was changed because they were only visible due to an ICP error or something like that. Not sure if it was announced, but doubt it was because they weren't supposed to be able to see it in the first place.

This is true that we were technically supposed to not be able to see it. But this viewing ability has been an option up until now. And the idea that members do not need to see this information is elitist, doing nothing but widening the massive rift between the higher ups and the normal population. At the end of the day, I do NOT trust GFL with higher up privacy. I strongly believe that they will continue to decide to do nothing, leaving individuals who feed off of the “I’m important, I’m a higher up. I’m different than you all.” mentality a platform to abuse. GFL has been constantly rife with cliques, toxicity, and elitism. If the apps continue to stay hidden, DLs will be able to completely take over, choosing every admin they want, most likely only friends. Do not think that I’m crazy for saying this, because the higher ups also have the same mentality regarding their own admins. Which is why even admins, the people who are trusted to keep servers clean and running efficient, cannot view apps. Why do the higher ups expect me to trust them with no visibility when they do not extend the same hand to their own admins?

[Roger Gunshot 204 / 5,018]

This can't be done due to restrictions in the coding software/language that is used, so the point is rather moot in my opinion.

 

However, like many have said, there is no need for members to be able to view in-progress applications. As Arson pointed out several times, we already have staff lists so that people KNOW who the admins are. Most people will not be quiet about applying for admin either, so you can get a good feel of who is applying, who has applied, or who is planning to apply just by playing whatever server you play on and listening to the conversations that people have. I'm originally from TTTFun, where the applications could be seen by everyone. And it was not good. It created more avenues for toxicity, more avenues for harassment, and that did nothing to outweigh any of the potential "good" in being "transparent".  Currently there is no way for people to see a topic and then be unable to comment, unless the thread is locked. You claim that moderation will keep it down and it won't be an issue, which I personally seen to be flawed. We had an issue in a ban appeal where a member randomly commented nothing relevant to that appeal and caused a scene before moderators could do anything about it, since it was later in the night. This just creates extra work for the moderation team to handle.

 

I'll compare it to a volunteer application followed by an interview. The person posts their "resume", why they would make a good admin, what experience they have, and why they should be an admin. And then we essentially have an "interview" where we either agree or disagree with them. What job interviews or volunteer interviews are public? I can't go to my boss at my actual job and demand to know who put in an applications and then see their applications as well as the reasons for whether they were hired or turned away. You get to know them by working with them there, or playing with them here in this case. If you have an issue with that particular admin or believe they are abusing, then there are abuse reports here on the forums for a reason. Chances are, if a player is noticing, other staff have already noticed and brought it up with someone as well (as long as the issue is legitimate, and not "he won't let me murder 5 people for no reason, badmin"). If it's not abuse, but you have issues with them regardless, that's when you bring them to an SM or a DL. But again, chances are, those issues are already known by many staff members for whatever server/division it is.

 

TLDR: No, they should not be able to be viewed by others. I was part of a server community where they were and know firsthand just how toxic and cancerous it is, especially within a Gmod community like I'm in. Not to mention, it can't be done due to the confines of the coding software/language used here, which renders the point rather moot.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Roger Gunshot

[Male_08 403 / 0]

12 hours ago, Dominic said:

I also thought hidden applications were a new thing, but since I didn't catch it being mentioned anywhere in this thread I thought I was imagining things. When exactly was that changed and why? Was it ever announced?

 

 

It was different almost everywhere. I could see some cs:go applications and forum/ discord moderator applications. However, I could only see denied applications in some gmod servers. Now I can’t see anything.

[Amelie 434 / 7,376]

1 hour ago, Roger Gunshot said:

This can't be done due to restrictions in the coding software/language that is used, so the point is rather moot in my opinion.

 

However, like many have said, there is no need for members to be able to view in-progress applications. As Arson pointed out several times, we already have staff lists so that people KNOW who the admins are. Most people will not be quiet about applying for admin either, so you can get a good feel of who is applying, who has applied, or who is planning to apply just by playing whatever server you play on and listening to the conversations that people have. I'm originally from TTTFun, where the applications could be seen by everyone. And it was not good. It created more avenues for toxicity, more avenues for harassment, and that did nothing to outweigh any of the potential "good" in being "transparent".  Currently there is no way for people to see a topic and then be unable to comment, unless the thread is locked. You claim that moderation will keep it down and it won't be an issue, which I personally know to be true. We had an issue in a ban appeal where a member randomly commented nothing relevant to that appeal and caused a scene before moderators could do anything about it, since it was later in the night. This just creates extra work for the moderation team to handle.

 

I'll compare it to a volunteer application followed by an interview. The person posts their "resume", why they would make a good admin, what experience they have, and why they should be an admin. And then we essentially have an "interview" where we either agree or disagree with them. What job interviews or volunteer interviews are public? I can't go to my boss at my actual job and demand to know who put in an applications and then see their applications as well as the reasons for whether they were hired or turned away. You get to know them by working with them there, or playing with them here in this case. If you have an issue with that particular admin or believe they are abusing, then there are abuse reports here on the forums for a reason. Chances are, if a player is noticing, other staff have already noticed and brought it up with someone as well (as long as the issue is legitimate, and not "he won't let me murder 5 people for no reason, badmin"). If it's not abuse, but you have issues with them regardless, that's when you bring them to an SM or a DL. But again, chances are, those issues are already known by many staff members for whatever server/division it is.

 

TLDR: No, they should not be able to be viewed by others. I was part of a server community where they were and know firsthand just how toxic and cancerous it is, especially within a Gmod community like I'm in. Not to mention, it can't be done due to the confines of the coding software/language used here, which renders the point rather moot.

 

Thank you for the lengthy response, I have touched on most of these points from previous responses, so the only one I want to touch on is the toxicity. 
 

 

Why do admins become admins? Because they recognize toxicity in the server, in the discord, on the forums. You already know first hand before even submitting an application the level of toxicity you would have to be dealing with. Using toxicity as a point is moot, simply because it is already well known. When I was mod, people like Royce would beg me in the mod channel to help him with “meanies” in the discord channel that he was too afraid to punish. 
 

So I must say this. 
If toxicity is an issue for you, do not interact deeply in communities where it runs rampant. It is not the communities job to shut down all possible toxic waste locations. It is your job to put yourself into situations where you feel as comfortable as you wish. The transparency kept responsibility in check. It was a way to know if the leaders were even active. 
 

harassment is a different issue, but please. If you can’t help or do your job when you need to because of your feelings (which should not be part of a mods job, only to enforce the rules), then please resign.
 

 

 

[Roger Gunshot 204 / 5,018]

Just now, Amelie said:

Thank you for the lengthy response, I have touched on most of these points from previous responses, so the only one I want to touch on is the toxicity. 
 

 

Why do admins become admins? Because they recognize toxicity in the server, in the discord, on the forums. You already know first hand before even submitting an application the level of toxicity you would have to be dealing with. Using toxicity as a point is moot, simply because it is already well known. When I was mod, people like Royce would beg me in the mod channel to help him with “meanies” in the discord channel that he was too afraid to punish. 
 

So I must say this. 
If toxicity is an issue for you, do not interact deeply in communities where it runs rampant. It is not the communities job to shut down all possible toxic waste locations. It is your job to put yourself into situations where you feel as comfortable as you wish. The transparency kept responsibility in check. It was a way to know if the leaders were even active. 
 

harassment is a different issue, but please. If you can’t help or do your job when you need to because of your feelings (which should not be part of a mods job, only to enforce the rules), then please resign.
 

 

 

Nobody is saying that they can't deal with harassment and toxicity, nobody in this thread has said that yet you keep going back to it. I would appreciate if you didn't ask me to resign based off of my opposition to this idea and my unwillingness to expose others to the toxicity and harassment I deal with every time I log onto the server. If I misunderstood that I apologize, but that's how it comes off. Our point is that there is no reason to open up even more avenues for it to occur. While the job of the community is not to shut down all possible methods of toxicity and harassment (especially since that's impossible), it IS the job of the community to not open even MORE places for it to occur. Again, that's exactly what happened with TTTFun. Opened up more toxicity and harassment.