Discord and Server Managers

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,927]

I think it would make a good thread.

 

I don't understand why Server Managers don't have Discord Mod permissions by default in their respective game mode ie. TTT Manager in GMOD Discord (to clarify further I'm not suggesting anything global or in the main).  I understand that not everyone is the best at diffusing situations, but I feel like that is the exception and not general or typical Server Manager; I also don't mind if people grow into their roles or learn.

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,172]

I don't think they should have perms to ban, warn, kick, etc., or be obligated to do all the things mods do.
I do think they should have the perms to make/edit channels in their areas (like they do on the gmod discord, )and be able to make webhooks if needed( which they can also do on the gmod discord.)
*Ill explain on my reasonings later, will edit this*
Edit: i adressed my opinion later in the thread, since i saw a chance to directly respond to soemoen

Edited January 19, 2021 by BlazingArson

[Serenity 546 / 7,380]

I feel that just giving it to managers by default wouldn't be the best idea. Some probably have no interest in being a Discord mod which could result in issues within itself. Also some of the managers aren't the best with deescalating situations or don't care to do so. It just makes more sense to apply for the people who are interested in helping out and taking on this role. There are probably a few more reasons but don't feel its necessary to explain as I don't see this suggestion being implemented personally.  

Edited January 18, 2021 by Serenity

[Nick 1,249 / 17,847]

Take what I am about to say with a grain of salt, haha. 😛 I do realize it is not ideal in all situations.

 

My conceptual opinion, that I apply to many aspects of GFL, has multiple parts. Firstly, if you give someone responsibility for doing a certain thing, then they should have full say over it (as far as possible). The direct example here is that we expect the Mod TL to ensure that moderation is done well, and to do so the TL manages a team. If outsiders are given permission to do certain aspects of the team's work, then it will not be easy for the TL to ensure that they do a good job since they have no authority over the person. To me this is not fair to the TL, and it can become quite frustrating that you are only partially in charge, but at the end of the day you will still be accountable for all moderation. I strongly believe that everyone who does e.g. moderation work should be part of the moderation team so that the leader can actually manage moderation and likewise for other teams, servers, etc..

 

Secondly, people who does e.g. moderation work should be trained in doing so, they should know the procedures, they should stay up-to-date on changes, policies, and so on. This is somewhat easy to do with team members since, well, they have to, and they are also a lot easier to get in touch with. You cannot really expect a manager/outsider to stay up-to-date on all that.

 

To conclude, in my opinion you cannot do moderation work without being part of the moderation team (and likewise for all other team-like things in GFL). So have them apply if they want to. 😛

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,927]

Another clarification I'm not suggesting we allow them to break the rules or have them skip our training and flow.

[Ben 2,378 / 31,861]

I feel like that I am not comfortable enough to allow managers to moderate in their respective areas, which what we currently have is fine as is. We have several moderators that is also server managers, and they've applied to moderate, which is fine to me. To put note, if any managers is interested in moderating, they can apply for moderator. 

 

I think that some of them wouldn't follow what we do to track on infractions. If they aren't trained to do moderation stuff, they shouldn't be doing moderator stuff. Additionally, having to train a lot of managers would also be somewhat tedious. 

[TheJitFace 699 / 18,162]

Quick question, if you can't trust managers to manage a discord server, how can you even trust them to manage a server?

[Waylon Smithers 267 / 3,849]

Damn. Serenity straight roasting me.

 

Oh and I don't want to be mod.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Waylon Smithers

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,172]

20 minutes ago, TheJitFace said:

Quick question, if you can't trust managers to manage a discord server, how can you even trust them to manage a server?

I'd like to mention that, to me, it's less I don't trust them, more so I don't want to dump that responsibility onto them, along side the already demanding role that is being a server manager, unless they believe they can do both. 
And, while there are many facets of being a discord mod that overlaps with being a server manager, there are still things that a discord mod has to worry about that a server manager generally wouldn't have to worry about.
Finally, we already have many, many mods. The only one I'd say needs more is Rust.

Edited January 18, 2021 by BlazingArson

[Ben 2,378 / 31,861]

23 minutes ago, TheJitFace said:

Quick question, if you can't trust managers to manage a discord server, how can you even trust them to manage a server?

1. Discord Moderators doesn't mean you're managing Discord server. GMod managers does have ability to create and change channels in that Division Discord, though. 

 

2. It's not about trust - never was, and never will be. It's all about the amount of work on the position itself, and all of that effort in order to moderate a server. If one manager wants to be a moderator, they have to apply for it. 

[Alexis 578 / 12,012]

I like the idea of Managers applying for the position. If they want to, that is.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Alexis

[Lachaine 114 / 3,521]

4 hours ago, Serenity said:

Also some of the managers aren't the best with deescalating situations or don't care to do so.

 

Hey! I’m not that bad! 

Edited January 18, 2021 by Lachaine

[Dominic 135 / 2,013]

Wouldn't you say that as an admin, or in this case a manager, of a server you should be able to diffuse situations in-game? If they're a manager, then they're already being trusted to be able to administrate their servers properly, on top of managing them. Those two things translate pretty closely (being a Discord mod and being a server admin), so I think the argument that you're already trusting them as a server manager is completely valid. There's no reason someone should be a server manager and not be able to deescalate situations. Additionally, you're not giving them responsibilities, you're giving them power to use if necessary. A server manager's responsibilities should be to manage their server, giving them power to moderate on their respective Discords is a courtesy. Personally, if I were an outsider looking in I'd find it laughable that a GMod manager has no power over me on the GMod Discord.

 

As for the argument Nick made about the Mod TL not having power over a server manager despite them having moderation abilities, isn't it the same thing with Directors and I'm sure, in a case such as GMod, the GMod Division Leader? I don't think it's unfair to the TL at all, if there was any misuse of powers it'd be as simple as going to a Director for a second opinion. Realistically, how many times are you going to see a case where a server manager has stepped drastically out of line? They're already very trusted individuals and like I mentioned, they should be able to handle situations like the ones you'd encounter on a Discord server. The Mod TL has a say about a vast amount of things here, but I don't think we should expect them to manage every single aspect of moderation that goes on everywhere. The same really goes for any TL, and that's why Directors and Division Leaders are there above them to help in a situation like that. 

 

I think the only valid concern here is the server managers neglecting the proper procedures for things, such as documenting punishments. Personally, I find that minuscule, but I can't speak on how integral that is since I'm not a Discord moderator. In any case, while it's not super crucial that this power is given to managers, I think it's nonsensical for them to not have it.

[TheJitFace 699 / 18,162]

2 hours ago, Dominic said:

In any case, while it's not super crucial that this power is given to managers, I think it's nonsensical for them to not have it.

Exactly and when I was manager like 2 years ago, we had all the perms. I don't ever recall a manager complaining "this is so much work", granted I could have just missed it, but I never thought it was a lot of work. However, I managed a smaller server in a completely separate division so I did not have a lot of work to begin with, but why not have managers and mods work together? Giving managers permissions does not automatically overburden them because mods still exist. It is just an extra part of their role. I don't understand why this even changed, if it was perfectly fine before, why was it changed? 

[Dominic 135 / 2,013]

I'd like to elaborate on the last part of my post and sort of summarize what I just said while we were discussing in Discord.

 

Managers, if they were to receive inherent moderation abilities on Discord, should be held to the exact same standard as normal moderators. If a manager wants to get involved in moderation for their server's Discord, they need to keep up with procedure updates and do the things a moderator does like document infractions. If a manager has zero interest in getting involved, then they can disregard anything related to moderator procedures and go about their business normally. The point is that giving them the choice is courteous and sensical. This also means they're held accountable just as a normal moderator is. What happens when a normal moderator misuses a command? The same should happen to a manager. They shouldn't need to apply for moderator because they shouldn't be held to a certain activity standard, they should just be able to use the powers when they deem fit. 

 

Being a manager means managing every aspect of your server. You manage your server, the forum section, the ban appeals, the admin applications, and you even moderate the server if you want to. However, oftentimes a manager will delegate these responsibilities to others; they give server admins the responsibility of moderating the server, senior admins the responsibility of handling ban appeals, etc. However, just because a server manager has a team of admins to administrate his server doesn't mean his in-game abilities are removed. This exact analogy is bad for a few reasons, but hopefully my point is getting across. A manager should have the ability to manage all aspects of their server whenever they want to or think it's necessary. In no way should it be necessary for a GMod Server Manager to apply to moderate GFL's GMod Discord. To me, that makes plenty of sense.

 

Current server managers being fine with how things are or actually being in opposition to this idea should hold just as much weight as anyone else's opinion and I respect the fact that they think that way, but them speaking for future managers isn't fair. This needs to be looked at from a logical standpoint. Let me ask this question to the general public as well: would any manager, were they to apply right now, be rejected? If the answer is yes, then I think them being a manager is a very big problem. If almost every manager that applies would get it, why make them all apply at all? If a certain manager or two is deemed unfit to be a moderator, so be it. The Moderation TL should have final say in whether or not they'll be instantaneously approved and the same will go for future managers, the Moderation TL can veto their approval and decide whether or not to give it to them in the future.

 

The way I see it, there's no reason a tutorial on how Discord moderator works can't be thrown into a forum thread so a manager can train themselves whenever they want to. People seem to think this process is going to be super complicated; we'll have to train every manager, we'll have to add all of them to the Discord, so on and so forth - yes and no, like I said, I don't think the training or the additions to the Discord is a big deal in the slightest, plus you're giving the managers who may want to occasionally get more involved in moderation activities related to their server the choice to do so as a courtesy, because they're already a trusted person involved in that division who also happens to be very high in the ranks. If you put into perspective all of the power and abilities a manager has already, them not being able to do simple moderation on their Discord server seems pathetic. To me, it just seems incredibly backwards that a GMod Discord Moderator has more powers than a GMod Server Manager. 

 

Managers should inherently have moderation abilities in their respective Discords.

Edited January 18, 2021 by Dominic

[Shuruia 3,145 / 28,023]

17 hours ago, Nick said:

To conclude, in my opinion you cannot do moderation work without being part of the moderation team (and likewise for all other team-like things in GFL). So have them apply if they want to. 😛

Such a corporate mindset. A lonely opinion as well, given that non-mod Directors freely participate in Discord moderation with no consequence. I should also note that this opinion has never been fully put into practice in GFL, and it never will be. GFL isn't some large corporation where "lower-level" duties are impossible/difficult for higher-ups to do. The non-mods (Directors, DLs, Council who got senior mod without previously holding moderator, and TAs) who have been participating in Discord moderation do so because they've either been in these lower-level positions before, or they've been around long enough to see the methods & standards be put into practice many, many times already. It's different if they have the power and choose not to use it because they don't know how, but this is rare since our procedures aren't rocket science and they're very much within the public realm. If someone like a Director sees someone posting some neo-Nazi nonsense—or even something less egregious with no mods online—and doesn't immediately punish them because they're "not a Discord moderator", that Director shouldn't be a Director. End of story.

 

Now managers are a more interesting topic, since our standards on who can become a server manager are quite lax. On one hand, the vast majority of managers were previously server admins, which is another position that requires the same conflict management & appropriate use of force as a Discord/forum mod. On the other, GFL often has a habit of choosing server managers based on their technical ability and overt dedication to the server, rather than their strength of character. I'm sure we've all seen some examples of managers (and even DLs) that fall under this criteria.

 

With all things considered, I believe that managers should have moderator perms in their respective Discord servers. Managers can still answer to the Mod TL. People say that the Mod TL should be able to be responsible for people with moderation powers, yet no one seems to say why managers can't be beholden as such. Why not? Take their moderation powers away if they show that they don't know how to use them, or take it as a sign that perhaps they're not mature enough for a manager position if they make a habit of abusing said moderation powers—more or less a litmus test. Our manager team isn't some vast uncontrollable army, and the "bad apples" in said team number even fewer. And the argument that it'd be a matter of them needing to "put in the work to moderate the Discord" is so weak. Someone who has both the perms and knowledge of the procedures behind an action should be able to do it if the opportunity presents itself. I think we are grossly overcomplicating who should and shouldn't have perms to do certain things.

[TheJitFace 699 / 18,162]

29 minutes ago, Shuruia said:

I think we are grossly overcomplicating who should and shouldn't have perms to do certain things." in said team number even

Best response I have seen. This trend of turning GFL into a company is just stupid, it is a gaming community, not Microsoft.

[Ash 177 / 3,624]

1 hour ago, TheJitFace said:

Best response I have seen. This trend of turning GFL into a company is just stupid, it is a gaming community, not Microsoft.

 

If something's not being severely overcomplicated, are you really getting the true GFL experience?

[Dale Gribble. 62 / 2,696]

I believe server managers shouldn’t have the right of having commands like that if they did then why would you have discord moderators in the first place just to sit back and relax while the server mangers work harder then before to keep the discord non toxic? I believe it would it should be only discord moderators because they moderate the server and stand ready for any raider while server mangers do updates or whatever. I don’t get why we need another role to moderate the discord server discord moderators are doing the best they can to keep the toxic out and warn rulebreakers.

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,927]

I don't think anyone is suggesting another role.