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DrippyDogNuts

Is there no way to balance an innocent reviving role?

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Posted  Edited by DrippyDogNuts

It would obviously have only 1 use of the reviver, you could have it only revive innocents and neutrals to prevent from traitors ratting out their former team, or have any revived player muted for the remainder of the round. You could have the revived player have 50 hp or make the revive take 30 second or so, leaving the medic in a vulnerable position. You could make it so they can only revive when there are a certain number of innocents remaining. You could have the revive kill the medic, incentivizing them to use it when they are low on health. It doesn’t seem to me that this role would be absolutely overpowered from the jump, but there may be a reason I’m not realizing for it being broken

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Edited by DrippyDogNuts

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Posted  Edited by The1337Gh0st - Edit Reason: fixed spacing + added text

Haxray didn't exactly explain why he denied the Medic role, so I will explain why.

Innocents reviving are already pretty strong, but it's even worse when you get someone to revive who doesn't initially have the power to revive.

As Haxray put it in this post about the Occultist role, which is another Innocent role that can revive:

Spoiler

 

Innocents respawning back from the dead is one of the single strongest effects you could give the innocent team, due to allowing both to instantly figure out the killer's identity, force the evil roles to have to kill you all over again, adds an instantly proven teammate to the Inno team, and the potential scouting power the person did while dead.

 

While this may not be as strong since you would instead be trading the life of an Innocent for another, it would still have an adverse effect on gameplay.

 

There's also a role of the same name on the workshop, the Medic. If you're still interested in this concept though, there is already is a role on the workshop that's pretty much your Medic suggestion, the Sacrifice, but it will likely not be added in any time soon. If you would like to see a role like this in-game though, you can feel free to play on the Anarchy EU server, which has implemented the Sacrifice role.

Edited by The1337Gh0st
fixed spacing + added text

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3 minutes ago, The1337Gh0st said:

Haxray didn't exactly explain why he denied the Medic role, so I will explain why.

Innocents reviving are already pretty strong, but it's even worse when you get someone to revive who doesn't initially have the power to revive.

As Haxray put it in this post about the Occultist role, which is another Innocent role that can revive:

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Innocents respawning back from the dead is one of the single strongest effects you could give the innocent team, due to allowing both to instantly figure out the killer's identity, force the evil roles to have to kill you all over again, adds an instantly proven teammate to the Inno team, and the potential scouting power the person did while dead.

 

While this may not be as strong since you would instead be trading the life of an Innocent for another, it would still have an adverse effect on gameplay.

 

There's also a role of the same name on the workshop, the Medic. If you're still interested in this concept though, there is already is a role on the workshop that's pretty much your Medic suggestion, the Sacrifice, but it will likely not be added in any time soon.

 

This makes a lot of sense, I appreciate the response. Do you think the role could be balanced somehow, like muting the revived player and giving them reduced health or making the medic sacrifice themselves? Or giving the revived player some form of extreme handicap? I don’t intend to push this any further I just want to know your thoughts on it.


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6 minutes ago, DrippyDogNuts said:

Do you think the role could be balanced somehow, like muting the revived player and giving them reduced health or making the medic sacrifice themselves? Or giving the revived player some form of extreme handicap?

While it could be possible to give the revived player some sort of handicap, balancing the handicap itself would be either too weak or too strong depending on how you want to balance it, which would not be very fun to play as nor against. Some role interactions would also be rather overpowered, such as a Lycanthrope knowing that they are a Lycanthrope by reviving or a Pharaoh potentially gaining another use of the Ankh on revive.

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Posted  Edited by DrippyDogNuts
3 minutes ago, The1337Gh0st said:

While it could be possible to give the revived player some sort of handicap, balancing the handicap itself would be either too weak or too strong depending on how you want to balance it, which would not be very fun to play as nor against. Some role interactions would also be rather overpowered, such as a Lycanthrope knowing that they are a Lycanthrope by reviving or a Pharaoh potentially gaining another use of the Ankh on revive.

This makes sense.

Edited by DrippyDogNuts

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I will say I did make a dev request for a potential way to have an innocent who could revive the dead as a role, but it has a LOT of restrictions(dead people are blocked from hearing audio + cannot speak).

 

If it sounds extreme, if they can hear they can just use crowbar swings/crouching to get info across regardless. The dead person basically has to be unable to use overpowered ghosting capabilities.

This role is a 'MAYBE' though, depends on if it gets made and if it works out.

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Posted  Edited by Alexis

I'd also argue the fact that favorited revivability is in fact a reality in Anarchy. It'll become even more true if such an item or role were to be added into the game. What's stopping someone to revive someone they know would sweat and carry the entire team to victory? People usually always look for 1 person specifically so that they could have a way easier time and realize their revival wasn't a waste on some random innocent.

I've seen it done already with the Mesmerist. Plenty of times people would specifically look for someone like Count to revive so that the tides would turn instantly in their favor. Although, you can't really blame them for it. Someone like Count is really useful and they pay attention to the little-list of details and would strike down anyone that has done a wrong even if they lack communication.

Communication removal won't even matter, all someone has to know is that someone calls out, "Hey, this guy was revived and is confirmed Innocent." Repeatedly, and nobody would bat an eye when they would just kill a random evil or traitor role, "As long as they are paying attention, and don't RDM."

Edited by Alexis

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16 hours ago, The1337Gh0st said:

While it could be possible to give the revived player some sort of handicap, balancing the handicap itself would be either too weak or too strong depending on how you want to balance it, which would not be very fun to play as nor against. Some role interactions would also be rather overpowered, such as a Lycanthrope knowing that they are a Lycanthrope by reviving or a Pharaoh potentially gaining another use of the Ankh on revive.

also it would be likely that if you take away too many basic abilities (such as muting them) then it will just not be fun to get revived, people will want to stay dead so they dont have to go through the pain of playing without regular abilities


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Posted  Edited by Paul.

The only way I can see innocent reviving being possible is that when you are killed you don't go straight to spectate, instead you go to a holding screen with no spec chat or audio and no visibilty. 

From there you may be revived or choose to fully die which puts you in regular spec but doesn't allow you to be respawned as innocent.

Edited by Paul.

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Innocent revival = OP

Literal wallhack, invisibility, practically instant kill knife, ability to create teammates, a role that turns everyone into zombies, a role that respawns as it's killer = OK

anarchy logic

You guys know we had a role that could revive people right? In game? For a long time? And it didn't lead to any of the issues you're forecasting. I revived many an innocent as Marker and not ONCE did they call out people they saw in spec, no one is paying attention in spec. 

Why does Randy Rando get an infinite use, 3 credit, instant kill item, and that's not OP? Seriously, there's so many OP things in Anarchy and none of them benefit innocents. Innocent is the ultimate cuck role in this server and the existing roles don't benefit innos in the slightest. 

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Posted  Edited by twalesijr

After reading all of these replies, I am incredulous that not a single person mentioned that we already have an innocent reviving role on the US Anarchy server - Pharaoh. All of you are just acting like innocent revival doesn’t exist on the server and it’s out of the question because of how “overpowered” it is. We’ve had pharaoh on the server all this time and I can’t recount a single time anybody specifically called it OP. It was just an “aw shit, I stealthily killed this guy as an evil role and now he’s called me out because he was the pharaoh.” moment. It was just something that happens occasionally to fuck up your T round, and people rarely complain about the pharaoh in this regard. Sure, pharaoh only has 50 HP when it respawns, and has its very own counter, the Graverobber, but since I started playing Anarchy in April, I can count on one hand how many times my Ankh has actually been converted by the graverobber with me being unable to convert it back/kill the graverobber. It’s much more common for the ankh to simply be destroyed and you are just a proven innocent who lost their ankh. But the majority of the time, when the pharaoh is killed, the ankh is still there and the pharaoh can respawn, in which they have 10 seconds to spectate around when they can not only put their killer, but maybe even catch a second person before they respawn. I guess my point with all this is, how are people calling sacrifice OP when pharaoh remains on the server?  Sure, like Alexis mentioned, the sacrifice can target players who they know are good at the game to return, whereas whoever rolls pharaoh is going to be the one who respawns, but the main point that people are calling OP is not the skill of the player who revives, but the intel that they provide about who is evil. And as Scorpio mentioned, evils have tons of completely OP things are their disposal, a prime example being the punisher. If I get Randy, all I need to do is pick off an AFK det/traitor, and I have enough credits to buy it. And if you know how to player Jackal, the best way to play it is sidekick somebody, go on a killing rampage, die, the sidekick jackals a new person, and the process repeats. If all of the people who get side kicked understand this VERY SIMPLE PLAN, the jackals should win no problem. The golden rule of TTT has always been good traitors beat good innocents, and with all of these powerful evil roles, innocents are absolutely the underdogs in the current state of Anarchy. I personally think Sacrifice would be a balanced and fun addition to the lineup of roles. 

Edited by twalesijr

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