Sexual discussions discouraged

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,927]

Quick summary for TL;DR folks

 

Please, no more sexual discussions.  Moderators will start with a verbal warning that does not go on your official record, and can escalate it into real punishment should they find you are continuing.  Do not test the waters if you disagree.  Take it to a Senior Moderator+ or use Staff feedback to discuss it.  If you've been involved in these discussions in the past, then our current plan is to start with a clean slate (unless you've already been warned for it... you are not entitled to a new warning).

 

..

 

Details

 

Note this is new and not ironclad.  If there's some fancy verbiage or loophole, then please do not try to use it... we can read in between the lines, and it is likely you will be unhappy about the outcome should you try something that does not reasonably align with the goal of this announcement; furthermore: All context and history will be taken into consideration, which means the baseline guideline meant for typical cases might not apply to your situation.

 

We're responding to an abundance of feedback both from the survey and privately messaged concerns about sexual discussions.  I understand this is a gaming community and there are going to be some topics about sex or sexual activities... it might be acceptable at other communities, and it has been admittedly tolerated here so far.  That's going to change now.  We're aligning with what the greater community has asked for and it's practical enough for us to implement.

 

Many of the discussions have gone way too far here, and it has made many people - new and old - feel very uncomfortable and out of place on Discord.  Far more than 1 or 2 people from different parts of the community have pointed to some past discussions and we can certainly understand the concern.

 

Please no naming and shaming.  A few examples of the discussions, but NOT limited to:

 

• Butt plugs
• Dildos
• Underage sexual activity
• Sexual body parts

 

What we will be doing going forward is "discouraging" such discussions beginning with verbal warnings, and also to not snag you on such a subjective topic.  Verbal warning does not go on your official record as an infraction although we do keep track especially if someone is receiving a lot of warnings.  If you do not discontinue after your verbal warning, then it is fair game to escalate it into an official punishment most likely aligning with "Rule 10 The moderators have the final say."

 

..

 

Someone else was warned.  Not me!  I deserve a warning first!

 

Lets say person A and B are having a sexual discussion that we would like to discourage, and person A receives a verbal warning asking to please discontinue the topic.  Person B is not entitled to a verbal warning should they want to squeeze in a little more, and that's because the moderator would have good reason to believe that Person B was actively online and witnessed the warning (no need to warn twice).  So far as Person C, D, and so on... it will be handled on a case-by-case basis, but the gist of it is: If the moderator has very good reason to believe that they witnessed the warning, then the moderator should not be needing to say so 20x in order to make it clear that the discussion is unwanted.

 

Lets say that there is no moderator online and there is a lengthy discussion that has occurred (no moderator there to give a verbal warning).  This will be a slightly broken part of our system, and we will have to handle that on a case-by-case basis depending on the severity and context.  If it's a mere 1-2 liner, then we might message the person a verbal warning.

 

..

 

The moderator is being strict and unfair!  I should be able to discuss this topic.  I'm going to do what I want and appeal the punishment later.

 

DO NOT TEST THE WATERS!  It is too big of a risk to be wrong or to create conflict, and we will more often side with moderator in the cases where people choose to test the waters.  The right thing to do is to bring it forward to a Senior Moderator+ in private.  Remember, verbal warning does not go on an official record and so just because you've received a verbal warning does not mean you are in trouble.  An alternative route if you do not want to DM or you are having difficulty reaching a moderator, then please use Staff feedback on the forums (note it is best not to fill out the form anonymously so that we can discuss it with you).  If we can come to an agreement before an actual punishment, then you can discuss whatever has been agreed on.

 

..

 

I found someone who was discussing these things and would like to report it (... btw it happened in November 2021 don't mind this detail)

 

We're open to take a look.  Most likely... if it's old... we will take note of it and probably not act on it.

 

..

 

I would like to report this <lame thing> to get the other person in trouble; otherwise: Mods are lazy and don't care, and they allow for bad maybe even (not really) illegal things to happen!

 

 

We're going to try our best to be reasonable.  We understand that everyone has a different tolerance, but just because our decision does not align with the outcome you desired does not mean we're "letting things get away."

Edited February 10, 2022 by Joshy

[AlphaOwl 307 / 7,583]

In all seriousness, good change.

[JuicyBenny 91 / 0]

5 hours ago, Joshy said:

Person B is not entitled to a verbal warning should they want to squeeze in a little more, and that's because the moderator would have good reason to believe that Person B was actively online and witnessed the warning (no need to warn twice).

Personally speaking I think if two individuals are engaging equally into said discussion regardless of being there or not both parties should be (in context of in the discord) @'d and both parties should aknowledge their verbal warning. One not getting warned leaves distaste in the "I was warned they weren't woe is me", it also means on a possible mentality that person B not getting warned they could then think "well if I'm not getting warned then how I was talking about it was probably fine" 

 

Thats just me though. Equally engaging parties should get equal verbal warnings. There is a reason for two. Because it's two people. If they both engage in the future person A will get harsher than person B as person B was not issued a verbal warning to track back on. 

[Kim 953 / 11,372]

guys go on reddit or ph or something. No winkie pinkie here

[Cassie 1,226 / 23,060]

I feel attacked

[Avi 97 / 1,421]

I was one of the people that have been verbally outspoken about this issue for months. Initially quickly reading this post last night, yeah on the surface this sounds great, and addresses an ongoing issue. But coming back today and thoroughly reading it, this seems like a "fix" that doesn't fix the main issue. 

Why can't this be an official rule? Why can't it be added to the NSFW rule already in place? These types of conversations aren't supposed to happen in any type of public channels regardless of how you choose to enforce it.

And I agree with Juicy with the scenario he discussed. If you are going to verbally warn someone to stop a discussion they are having with another person, and that B person in the scenario wasn't told to stop, a reasonable person would think that what they said if they were in B's position was still allowed.  Not everybody thinks in the same way that you do, and will think their actions are fine until they are asked to stop. Ping both, warn both within the same message, it takes two seconds to add a second name to a message and covers you as a Moderator if they were to continue. 

I will touch on one more thing you said, where mods are allowing things to happen (not a fan of how you worded you illegal comment there because it makes it sound like you fail to understand that certain discussions  that occurred were minors talking about or hinting to illegal nsfw things, but that's another issue). It's not just an issue of allowing it or not allowing it.  It's an issue of a moderation tactic that the team has fallen into.  There is a larger issue of active moderation. These issues slip through the cracks because we don't use active moderation fully within the Discord (mainly referring to parts of Gmod Discord and the Main Discord but it may apply elsewhere); rather, there is a reactive moderation style used here, where Mods typically only arrive after getting pinged or when asked to step in privately. This leaves a hole in the Mod team knowing the community members, having an idea of their ages, and how the community runs. Which loops back to the NSFW issue, in that Mods have claimed they can't handle certain NSFW situations involving minors because they don't know who is a minor. Anyone that spends even a small amount of time in Rotation for example, would know just how many minors we do have in chat. Going full circle, if that is an issue with how the mod team handles this kind of thing, and chooses to use reactive moderation when handling issues, then NSFW should be removed across the board.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Avi
Spelling

[BestKevin 89 / 1,644]

41 minutes ago, Avi said:

It's an issue of a moderation tactic that the team has fallen into.  There is a larger issue of active moderation. These issues slip through the cracks because we don't use active moderation fully within the Discord (mainly referring to parts of Gmod Discord and the Main Discord but it may apply elsewhere); rather, there is a reactive moderation style used here, where Mods typically only arrive after getting pinged or when asked to step in privately. This leaves a hole in the Mod team knowing the community members, having an idea of their ages, and how the community runs. Which loops back to the NSFW issue, in that Mods have claimed they can't handle certain NSFW situations involving minors because they don't know who is a minor. Anyone that spends even a small amount of time in Rotation for example, would know just how many minors we do have in chat.

 

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,927]

These have been given careful thought.

 

The example I provided was to say that the verbal warning is a blanket warning (within reason).  In other words if 30x people are in the discussion... no... I don't expect the moderators to issue 30x different warns.  If 2x people are in the discussion and 5x other people see the warning and would like to troll the moderator by squeezing in their comment (per a strict policy they'd be entitled to an individual warn too), then we're going to be in a mess especially with typical behaviour we've seen in certain groups.  This was thought of, and that is why I addressed it.

 

We're not going to make it against the rules for now.  There are false or misunderstood claims that some of the activity is illegal.  It's not.  It might be cringe, but it is 100% not illegal.  I've definitely seen it a lot in real world environments especially within sports.  These things could happen even with a police officer standing right next to them...  nobody is going to get arrested over it, or the police officer will lose in court should it escalate that far.  I'm okay with being a little more strict on things that are well-known to be against the rules in many communities say for instance racial slurs and explicit images that show nudity, etc.  For example if a woman went outside without her shirt on and was showing nipple, then she would likely get in trouble in many areas.  It's true that some people (myself included) do not consider it an explicit image, but the practicality there is that most people do consider it explicit, and so that's why it is easier and reasonable to enforce.

 

The topic that is being addressed in this announcement...  they are without a doubt cringe topics, but they normally wont get you banned in other communities, and it's very hard to make a solid rule on something that could be extremely subjective- you could ask 100x people and you will likely get very distributed and scattered takes on each (sub) topic that is brought up.  (I'm not saying to ask 100x of your friends who likely share the same bias as you btw, otherwise you'll find it's "true" a large majority probably ~99x of will agree with you.)  Lets say that I'm in a sport where I'm a really talented... ice skating is probably a good one due to the Olympics...  I just finished my routine and did a backflip, and we'll even make it nastier there was a small wardrobe malfunction and part of my shirt has ripped.  Afterwards: I'm standing next to a cop and a 16 year old in a tiny skirted leotard maybe even a bit too showy comes up to me and says she wants to get really nasty with me.  Will either of us get arrested just because of that?  Obviously: No.  The cop and I might raise an eyebrow, but nothing is going to happen.  I'll ask her to leave or to go find her parents.  It's not illegal, and we're planning to practice the same practicalities in real life... we discourage and redirect, but we're not immediately putting anyone in jail.

 

Proactive and reactive moderation doesn't make sense to me.  I actually support reactive moderation.  There is no such thing as proactive moderation in my opinion.  Everyone who is on the moderator team they are regular players and people first, and they only react to situations.  We don't want people be doing "proactive" things like hunting or always acting robotic the entire time they are online.   They only "react" when someone does something wrong, and it aligns with the guidelines.  The only proactive thing is our actual guidelines, but I can assure you this topic as well as many others have received a lot of thought and attention.  We've seen some of the loopholes, we've asked a lot of what ifs, and all of it has been debated thoroughly.  Is it ironclad?  I will never admit to such a thing.  Like I said: We're all players first, this is a gaming community, and we'll do our best within practical limits maybe even a smidge further, but we wont design a system totally locked up by specifics.

 

We're going to give this middle ground a spin first, and we can fine tune it along the way as we learn and adjust.

Edited February 10, 2022 by Joshy

[Kettermelon 136 / 4,927]

does this mean no more saying penis out fo context?

[DaPainWayne 469 / 9,402]

2 hours ago, Avi said:

There is a larger issue of active moderation. These issues slip through the cracks because we don't use active moderation fully within the Discord (mainly referring to parts of Gmod Discord and the Main Discord but it may apply elsewhere); rather, there is a reactive moderation style used here, where Mods typically only arrive after getting pinged or when asked to step in privately.

just saying, it's unrealistic to want moderators to be staring at chats 24/7 watching what people say. we aren't the NSA, we have lives too

[Avi 97 / 1,421]

48 minutes ago, DaPainWayne said:

just saying, it's unrealistic to want moderators to be staring at chats 24/7 watching what people say. we aren't the NSA, we have lives too

I'm not saying mods need to baby sit a channel 24/7 because that would be unrealistic. What I am saying is that if you participate more in the Discords you moderate over by talking in chat and get to know the members of the community that reside in said Discords, there won't be as many questionable decisions and uncertainty of the mods handling situations they find as grey areas because they don't know the community members they moderate over. 

You would be one to site as an example by saying that you can't handle certain manners because they are considered grey areas when it comes to nsfw content because you don't know their age. A person who checks in for even a couple of minutes every so often can tell who the minors are and who the adults are (people are very open about that). Garry's Mod as a whole is still a large amount of minors that play the game. It should be expected that minors will be in the chat at any given moment.

 

To address something you said Joshy.

2 hours ago, Joshy said:

The topic that is being addressed in this announcement...  they are without a doubt cringe topics, but they normally wont get you banned in other communities, and it's very hard to make a solid rule on something that could be extremely subjective- you could ask 100x people and you will likely get very distributed and scattered takes on each (sub) topic that is brought up

I would recommend if you have the chance, go check out how other servers handle NSFW content in public communities (especially large scale and even partnered communities). It's not hard to write a rule or moderate because on a majority of those servers, NSFW is NOT allowed whatsoever. And that's how they state the rule, that it's not allowed. If you find it difficult to write a rule, you're overcomplicating things. 

Oh and so I don't sound like I'm speaking out of nowhere in terms of other communities, I have staffed several large scale Discord communities, including Partnered and other Gmod communities, and I have never staffed in another Discord community like this that allowed any kind of NSFW content.

[DaPainWayne 469 / 9,402]

4 minutes ago, Avi said:

You would be one to site as an example by saying that you can't handle certain manners because they are considered grey areas when it comes to nsfw content because you don't know their age. A person who checks in for even a couple of minutes every so often can tell who the minors are and who the adults are (people are very open about that). Garry's Mod as a whole is still a large amount of minors that play the game. It should be expected that minors will be in the chat at any given moment.

It's not my place to know anything personal about anybody who resides in channels. It's nobody's place to know that. This is the internet, honestly if people are smart they wouldn't share a single thing about themselves, and no one should expect people to. I'm not going to go around asking people's age, as that is inappropriate of me, and should be of anybody. Because again, this is the internet. 

 

Now, I also find it pointless to go back and forth on a forum post. Anything to follow up about my comments, DM me.

[Avi 97 / 1,421]

2 minutes ago, DaPainWayne said:

It's not my place to know anything personal about anybody who resides in channels. It's nobody's place to know that. This is the internet, honestly if people are smart they wouldn't share a single thing about themselves, and no one should expect people to. I'm not going to go around asking people's age, as that is inappropriate of me, and should be of anybody. Because again, this is the internet. 

 

Now, I also find it pointless to go back and forth on a forum post. Anything to follow up about my comments, DM me.

I would rather keep it public as this is a public discussion on a public issue.

That being said, you don't have to interrogate or ask people for their personal information, as that would be inappropriate. But if someone says in chat multiple times they are underage/a minor/to not discuss certain things with them because they are underage, but is also going on about sexual things, how is that not a red flag to a Moderator in general? I can think of multiple instances in rotation alone where this has happened. 

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,927]

Just reminder...

 

... topics like these... they don't usually have a "right" or "wrong" answer.  We're getting a lot of interesting feedback and we'll take note of it.

 

What we will do for now is continue with this plan.  It's a simple step towards achieving a common goal on a complicated issue, and... it's true... we will probably have to fine tune and adjust where a few small areas might not work perfectly.  I don't think it would be unfair for me to say that every single idea proposed in here including my own will have some flaws and tradeoffs.  It's just the nature of this activity.

 

We'll take note of the feedback and if we can find a way and immediate need to apply it practically, then we will very likely consider it.  So far as my visits to other communities (and even a look at our own game servers)... we are by far exceeding everyone and wherever I've seen.  If you do want to point me out to a few model places then I wouldn't mind taking a look to see... cherry pick a few good ideas and try to use them too.

Edited February 11, 2022 by Joshy

[Business Kirby 57 / 767]

9 hours ago, Joshy said:

We're not going to make it against the rules for now.  There are false or misunderstood claims that some of the activity is illegal.  It's not.  It might be cringe, but it is 100% not illegal. 

 

"Under California Penal Code Section 288.2, it is illegal to knowingly send, mail or email erotic material to a minor with the intent of arousing yourself or the minor. For example, if you were to chat with minors online and sent the minor a nude photo of yourself, you could be charged under Penal Code Section 288.2.

A charge under Penal Code Section 288.2 can result in a felony conviction punishable by up to three years in state prison and lifetime registration as a sex offender." - Quote, WKSexcrimes.com, a law firm who loves suing people with the opinion you just spouted.

Joshy, you are 100% incorrect. This is illegal. You cannot prove to me that there was no intent of arousal from the adults within these conversations. Unfortunately for you, the goal in court won't be to prove that there is based on the conversations I physically see on the discords, but it will be to prove that there was not intent. That being the case, the community operating this discord COULD BE HELD LIABLE by law, in the United States of America. 

Discord TOS 

 

There is your exact listing in the discord TOS.

Rectify the problem. Your only answer should be "Yes, NSFW is 100% banned on Discord". Not, "NSFW is not illegal with minors present".

I understand that you do not have experience running a discord of this size, but the Discord TOS is 100% clear on this topic.

You are subject to California state law when you operate a discord. From Australia, from Russia, from The US, from Canada, from Mexico, from Brazil. 

You are incorrect, legally, morally, and objectively.

Unfortunately, yes these topics do. There is a right and wrong answer. The right answer is the complete banning of NSFW from a discord that allows minors. If you want NSFW, make an 18+ discord and vet members. If you want to allow minors, DO NOT ALLOW NSFW. This is a cut and dry topic discussed by every major discord. 

Examples:
Official Wendy's Discord
Battle Brothers
Project Blurple

Do you need more examples of major discords run by companies (which GFL technically is) that follow the rules? I will be happy to provide them. I can go to any major discord that allows minors and pull their NSFW rule.

 

Edited February 11, 2022 by Business Kirby

[BestKevin 89 / 1,644]

Hey guys,

 

I think it is very much illegal especially considering the conversations I have seen (I compiled over 60 messages of this occurring in the past 3 months, just on Rotation in the GFL Garry's mod Discord).  Some of the messages involved sexual conversations with mods present, even some people higher than mod present, with no action being taken.

 

Isn't it common sense not to have lewd/sexual conversations with minors?  Do people get to use the excuse "I didn't know" because they were horny and thought a server with a game full of kids was the place to vent their sexual frustrations?  Maybe I am the weird one here.

 

I have had my own personal issues with the mod team but this is one of the biggest ticket issues I have seen them try to slither around like everything else, and it's pretty worrying.  I have had private messages from mods saying things such as "It's a gray area" or "It's hard to moderate because we don't know who the minors are at any given time".  I think the valid response to that is just to say No NSFW, is it really that hard?  You guys won't even be moderating this anyway, chances are someone will report it like most other rules, and you just have to slap a punishment on them like everything else.  Is the fear that it might not get reported and therefore go unpunished?  That is how it has been for almost a year anyway!

 

I'll be honest, it got really bad recently which warranted me looking into the chat history of specific people and for specific words, and that is how I found the amount of messages I did.  Those were recently shared and I am surprised that the response to this from the the moderation team was lenient/lacking compared to how I have seen them operate in the past.

Edited February 11, 2022 by BestKevin

[Infra 714 / 12,396]

Hello everyone,

 

Thanks for the feedback. In my opinion, while I think this entire thing is a step in the right direction, clearly we needed to do more with the way we were dealing with this. While the plan was to make change and develop as we moved, we've decided to instead go ahead with what we were going to do down the line.

 

Rule 6 has been updated:

Quote

6. Explicit Content:

Do not send/use any explicit content that includes, but is not limited to, NSFW content, NSFL content, or anything that conflicts with Discord's Terms of Service: https://discord.com/terms.

 

The previous rule specifically stated images and links. Instead, we are updating the rule to encompass everything explicit, whether its an image or text. I will note that what is largely covered in the first post of this thread still applies in terms of what is not allowed: relevant text chat interactions are against this rule.

 

While we already said we would be exercising Rule 10 when necessary with such things, this rule change should remove the whole "gray area" part of this entire conversation. Before I even get asked: if you have to ask if something is allowed, maybe its not a good idea to do it. There's an element of common sense that can be used when interacting with other people, edging things will get you no where. Just because something is not in the rules, does not mean you get a free pass.

 

TL;DR, Explicit content is not allowed.

 

-

 

Just going to address some other things from here that aren't entirely related to the main topic at hand,

 

Proactive/Reactive Moderation

Cool points everyone, but I want to add that if you would like people to be proactive within a specific community, there has to be "people" from said community working on it. For instance, no one from CS:GO Surf is going to be proactive with TTT Rotation, and we should not expect the opposite to happen either. The solution to this is to apply and work with your community.

• "But an application is too much work" - just a few lines about why you want to help out is usually enough.
• "But I would have to do everything on my own all the time" - you are not the only person around.
• "But I don't agree with the mod team's current opinion on *Insert Topic Here* - join for your community, change the way things work!

We're hoping to work on some more suggestions, not just with moderation, on how we can improve things - for instance, we're looking into a mod mail solution that should make it easier to get in touch with mods and report things and some updates to our aging moderation bot that will allow us to offer things people have been asking for quite a while, so we'll see how we go. If you have more ideas for things that can help, please, don't hesitate to make threads/dm people and suggest things.

 

-

 

Once again, thanks for the feedback! I'm going to be locking this thread, so if you have questions, feel free to message me on Discord. (I might be busy for the rest of today, so apologies in advance for the delayed responses)