Joshy 4,364 / 44,921 Report Post Posted February 21, 2022 Edited February 21, 2022 by Joshy Hi! We are moving forward with an update with how our rules are presented in some of our Discords. The rules of course will continue to be visible as it is, and they are the same rules. The procedures and guidelines will also remain the same; however: these will only be visible to moderators. Moderators will be asked to continue following these procedures and Senior Moderator+ will continue to proactively review any reports or infractions. Some of the rules that usually warrant a permanent ban will have a note Permanent Ban, but please note the disclaimer covering some rare case by case situations. The rules are posted here, and we will be rolling this out onto several Discord Channels too. Should users disagree with their own punishment or believe that they were wrongfully punished at all, then it is strongly encouraged to create a discord appeal. Moderators are not expected to discuss someone else's ban especially outside of a proper appeal. Thanks! Edited February 21, 2022 by Joshy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rhysin_ 540 / 13,162 Report Post Posted February 21, 2022 So people were upset because they believed there to be inconsistencies in the how the procedures and guidelines were followed, and your best idea was to hide the procedures and guidelines from them? Solid plan, have fun. Side Note: why did yall make the disclaimer so ugly lol Made by @Clavers Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Business Kirby 57 / 767 Report Post Posted February 21, 2022 why hide the procedures and guidelines? that doesn't make much sense at all. Business Kirby GMOD sourced IT Certified professional. Advanced Python, C# - Intermediate LUA, GLUA - Proficient/General PHP, HTML, XML Steam: Kirby / Discord: Kirby#6049 ----- "Business Kirby doing Business Things." Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anathema Device 236 / 6,853 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 I kinda get why this is a thing but it also just feels weird. One the one hand, if you find yourselves not really following guidelines or working through new ones, you might as well change them so people aren't expecting and holding you to them, but also I think the mod team coming under some scrutiny and then pulling back some public information seems counterintuitive to me Not sure what would be better, to be honest, I'm not super well versed in communities like this. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BestKevin 89 / 1,644 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Yeah would be better if it was public, not only does it help with understanding what could happen with certain rules (not really needed, but nice) but also keeps the mods in check since a good chunk of people in the Discord I am in don't regard them as trustworthy. Take something like the Staff CoC for instance, it's public so we know if they are breaking any rules on how they should operate/handle the community. Gives us an idea of what we can possibly report staff for. Those guidelines do directly affect the players on the Discord after all. From my perspective (meaning this is my opinion) this is going in the opposite direction of transparency which people besides myself have talked about wanting in the past with the mod team. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshy 4,364 / 44,921 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Edited February 22, 2022 by Joshy I understand the concerns, but I do want to point out that this is not a novel or new idea. This is the same practice at most places including most of our GFL servers. We're just copying a known good system. It might be weird because we're unraveling something that was too overly done and unnecessarily visible, but it doesn't feel weird when you join other Discords or even our own game servers that do not spell out all their procedures in detail... maybe some are will go as far as telling you which one might warrant a permanent ban on the spot, and we're wiling to do that (it's still included). Visit some non-GFL servers and you'll also find... similarly... we're not doing anything novel or shady. I'm sure there are a small handful of examples where they might, but the typical one is exercising exactly what we're doing here. Take a look at some examples: CS:GO ZE MOTD GMOD TTT Rotation MOTD TF2 MOTD Now why would be pushing procedures behind the curtain be more transparent? What was happening is people would be looking at the rules with all of these procedures, they were just confused because it didn't apply to them. Too much information. We want them to emphasize the important details that should matter to them the most, which is the rules. A lot of the disagreements and confusion is caused by people who often have an incomplete picture or might even be totally irrelevant to the situation, and they end up spreading lies and false rumours. Now instead of transparent procedures in the rules being clear... what really goes around is these lies and false rumours, and it's confusing. We're eliminating that confusion. People either broke the rules or they didn't, and if there's any confusion or concern they can make an appeal just the same as most other places. We will happily share the evidence where every relevant person can be involved instead of a few scattered DMs or pictures with a small piece of information. The procedures are not changing, and in fact regular users never had the authority or capability to oversee these procedures even though we made it public. That has always been within the scope for Senior Moderators+ to be doing and they will continue to do so. People are still allowed to make abuse reports and staff feedback as well if they disagree, which will get high tiered staff members to review it further if needed. Edited February 22, 2022 by Joshy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avi 97 / 1,421 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 3 hours ago, Joshy said: Take a look at some examples: CS:GO ZE MOTD GMOD TTT Rotation MOTD TF2 MOTD Not sure why GMOD TTT Rotation's MOTD was brought into this for not being transparent on punishments when our punishments for standard offenses are listed on the bottom of our MOTD. We do not have every punishment listed, but if anyone ever has a question about the length of a punishment or type of punishment that could result as of something, we are transparent in those regards as well. Not to mention our gbans is public to see anyone's infractions/bans for our server at any given time. Just throwing a screenshot of our MOTD in there to show Im not speaking out of nowhere: I will say, I know we want to update our MOTD in the near future to clarify some rules, which could also include adding/updating the punishments, but that's not the main point I want to get at with my post. I understand things can't be fully transparent; with certain situations that do occur, that could cause more issues than good. However, I do think there needs to be some form of transparency, as well as some form of written out structure of how the Mod team handles things (not just a "do as I say" format). People want more transparency so they can have a better understanding of how the system works, and you've gone in the complete opposite direction, which clearly has upset people. I would say it would be best if ALL servers and the Discords be more transparent with their internal functions (i.e. staff guidelines/how punishments are handled/etc.) The more this kind of information is present, the less likely all of us will run into people questioning our actions and how we handle things as staff. A recent situation in the Discord between another server's staff and myself has shown that there is a disconnect even within transparency between similar servers and our division. It's something I want to work on fixing and hope that others will consider as well. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshy 4,364 / 44,921 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 4 minutes ago, Avi said: We do not have every punishment listed This is my key point, and we're doing nothing different. Please note that GMOD TTT was among the few examples, which included CS:GO ZE and TF2. I was only giving examples to prove that this idea is not novel or new. I was a bit vague about other Discord communities as I did not want to risk advertising, but I think my statement regarding that are also very true for the general case. Most Discords do not list all of their procedures too. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avi 97 / 1,421 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Edited February 22, 2022 by Avi 11 minutes ago, Joshy said: This is my key point, and we're doing nothing different. Please note that GMOD TTT was among the few examples, which included CS:GO ZE and TF2. I was only giving examples to prove that this idea is not novel or new. I was a bit vague about other Discord communities as I did not want to risk advertising, but I think my statement regarding that are also very true for the general case. Most Discords do not list all of their procedures too. You missed the part where we are transparent about all of our punishments though, whether written or verbal, which is the main difference between our server and the servers you listed/Discord Mods for example. And there are Discords (Gmod Discords included), that do list their procedures and have all punishments publicly posted. So that's a moot point. Edited February 22, 2022 by Avi Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheThirdReaper 291 / 0 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Edited February 22, 2022 by TheThirdReaper I'd like to also point out that while I do not have our punishments listed in Prop Hunt's MOTD, I do have a separate post for them. This is for transparency and ease of access for my admins. Edited February 22, 2022 by TheThirdReaper Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options... Achievements
BestKevin 89 / 1,644 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Here is an example of another "gaming community" (They are GMOD only, but have a big playerbase on their Discord) that has a very well set up Discord ruleset that is public: https://www.dinklebergsgmod.com/site/showthread.php?tid=15923&pid=122847#pid122847 Their discord has ~5k people on it, 1000 online right now at 10 AM EST. In general a ruleset like this is easier on moderators due to how clear-cut the punishments are. You don't need to deliberate with "the team", it will build up some skills in being self-sufficient within the mod team here. The senior mods and TLs can step in if they feel like something was handled improperly, but with rules this clear that would be tough to do. I broke their NSFW (minor) rule? Warned, did I do it once before? Active Strike (lasts 6 months). Every minor version of their rules generally goes warn > strike, after getting your third strike then you start getting punishments for breaking multiple rules. So if I got 3 strikes I get a 12 hour mute. I can appeal strikes if I feel it was given incorrectly or after 6 months they no longer apply to me. Their quote on the top really makes me feel like they understand how to do it though: "Below, you will find our full ruleset explained in excruciating detail. For most people, common sense is all that needs to be applied. But due to Discord's funky terms of operation, and due to our unique community, our staff team feels that having clear rules of engagement with our discord is beneficial for all." You could say that GMOD as a whole is a "unique community", and a lot lack common sense. To keep things easier you guys could just make strikes go across Discords since it's a "global ruleset" and all within the GFL Clan that might have some variation depending on the Division. Now both the players AND the mods have a very clear understanding of how things work in Discord! Just a reminder that I only speak of GMOD because that is all I know from GFL Clan. Also I don't think comparing server rules to Discord is the right way to go, which is why I found a similar community to compare it to. One additional thing I will mention is that in looking at their Discord, they have a bot to handle strike appeals and user reports that are private so people aren't pinging mods publicly to get something addressed or needing to go fill out a public appeal on the forum, so that might be helpful as well. (The bot also tells you what strikes you currently have :gasp:) Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshy 4,364 / 44,921 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 It’s good that people can find a small handful of cases where that system works for them. I never denied that. It doesn’t change the point that what we’re doing is very much like most other places, and we’ve never said anything that suggests we’ll be any less transparent than any of the examples we provided. We’re still spot on 🙂 These extra example do bring up another good or share the dilemma we run into from time to time. For example I would imagine some servers where something happens to 5-10 people, and the server has like 50 people on it.. it’s totally fair to say like wow that is affecting a lot of people. When something happens for 5-10 people on our Discords… that’s a actually a really tiny number we’d love to drive down to zero, but in the big picture it’s an extremely small number on our discords, and these 5-10 people can be very vocal and confusing our larger population with their lies and “unbiased” concerns. Now when the mod team has to make a few decisions based on full evidence of something, take that into consideration for their calculation on the procedures, and people look at what was posted and listen to the lies from the few individuals…. the lies look more believable and it confused the bigger population. Now a system that was designed to resolve 95% of the cases wrongfully looks broken and scares a subset of the 95% too (they ask for all sorts of incredibly things that only affect the really small subset), and they begin to make decisions that are not very good like avoiding staff or appeals when they run into a rare issue themselves. We’re definitely clearing up that confusion. I’ve made no secret of it ever that that these small 5-10 people…. no particular individuals at all…. if they have a history and frequent number of infractions, then they should be concern. The best part about this update, though, is that this announcement has zero impact on their outcome. We hope those individuals will make positive contributions to the community and stay with us for a long time, but there will be no confusion when we enforce the rules on those individuals. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
BestKevin 89 / 1,644 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Can you list a few other places that act exactly like your current team to back up the claim that you operate like most other places? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshy 4,364 / 44,921 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 17 minutes ago, BestKevin said: Can you list a few other places that act exactly like your current team to back up the claim that you operate like most other places? Great question. Feel free to review the 3 earlier listed examples. If you’d like more, then you’re welcome to explore more. I do think the statement I’m making about most other places… even beyond the examples… also do not list all of their procedures in detail and would be extremely trivial for you to find on your own if needed. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
tf_allen1104 36 / 523 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Edited February 22, 2022 by tf_allen1104 - Edit Reason: Added last additional sentence, didn’t need a full extra post Something still rubs me the wrong way. The fact that mods are strongly advised to not discuss these punishments except only in formal appeals makes it sound like players can no longer ask why or what rule was broken. The ability for open discussion should be available for people. And as for decluttering the rules because some done apply to people and it would be confusing for them. It’s better to have it ALL laid out there anyways if it can be helped, procedures and all so that ALL staff members can be held accountable. Better to be over informed than under informed. That’s how certain situations and backlash occurs. Just my two cents on all this. Also, where is the section to report staff abuse for discord moderation? I’ve only been able to find server abuse forms but no that one. It’s a bit hard to find. (Some people have been told to go there but have some difficulties navigating to it) Edited February 22, 2022 by tf_allen1104 Added last additional sentence, didn’t need a full extra post Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshy 4,364 / 44,921 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Edited February 22, 2022 by Joshy - Edit Reason: Added picture It’s the same place to my knowledge. I’m on my phone so the picture isn’t as pretty but I click on report someone - report staff - then report staff abuse. We also appreciate the staff feedback form too, which doesn’t necessarily have to be abuse. edit: Was able to get on my laptop for a minute. Here's the method. Edited February 22, 2022 by Joshy Added picture Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pyros 1,796 / 30,750 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 7 minutes ago, tf_allen1104 said: Also, where is the section to report staff abuse for discord moderation? I’ve only been able to find server abuse forms but no that one. It’s a bit hard to find. (Some people have been told to go there but have some difficulties navigating to it) If I recall, the form can be used to report admins and others, unless it is on a Team Leader (should be sent to Director of Teams) or Managers+ (Managers should be sent to the Division Leader, and Division Leader should be sent to Director of Teams) @Ash-'s opinion on gmod: Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avi 97 / 1,421 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 4 hours ago, Joshy said: When something happens for 5-10 people on our Discords… that’s a actually a really tiny number we’d love to drive down to zero, but in the big picture it’s an extremely small number on our discords, and these 5-10 people can be very vocal and confusing our larger population with their lies and “unbiased” concerns. 4 hours ago, Joshy said: We’re definitely clearing up that confusion. I’ve made no secret of it ever that that these small 5-10 people…. no particular individuals at all…. if they have a history and frequent number of infractions, then they should be concern. First, I think you are understating the number of people that have been upset at the recent decisions made for the Discord. There are quite a few, and while they may not be vocal about their issues, they have the vocal minority you talk about speaking for them. It does make one question why they won't speak up (fear of outlash, reputation to uphold, or maybe other reasons). Regardless, it leads to my second point, I have issue with some of your statements like the two I've quoted here as well as other statements made in private discussions. These statements have an overly aggressive and threatening tone to them. It makes it sound like you have a list of people you've put a target on and you're out to get them; it also makes it sound like there are certain parts of the community you want gone. I want to bring up a point that I've stated several times. You all are running into issues with the Gmod community and how they want things to be handled; that is one of the main issues here. What you fail to realize, is that the people from any Gmod server have expectations that have historically been with the game as a whole. There are certain expectations that the Gmod community as a whole has when it comes to moderation as well as rule sets. Part of this is because the playerbase historically has younger people (minors into college age), part of this is long standing communities that have set the standard for what they expect and provide to their servers. The problem GFL is having is trying to balance multiple gaming communities for multiple games within one overshadowing community. The other divisions will have their own expectations for how things are handled. We're also running into the issue that places like the Rotation part of the community has been left on the back burner for so long, things have festered and grown out of control. New people stepped in, myself included, and wanted things to go back to an acceptable standard. I've offered to work with you all on things, but have been brushed off, threatened indirectly, and pushed aside. This won't solve anything, and I honestly only see more things like this happening. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joshy 4,364 / 44,921 Report Post Posted February 22, 2022 Edited February 22, 2022 by Joshy Just want to cut away at any false information. Moderation team including myself definitely want to keep as much people on board, and I've said nothing that would suggest otherwise. I don't think it's aggressive or unfair me to say that I would like for people to follow the rules, and that people with a high infraction count should be worried. I'm not sure of any place where this wouldn't apply. I do think your accusations would be best brought up more discreetly with Directors. I can understand the concerns with the announcement, but a quick summary again: We're using a known good system that works at a lot of places including large scale and diverse communities with minors (Runescape is a great example since it has almost 15k online users many of them are very young players), and again it's a system that seems to work for our own game servers too. I've made no suggestion that we'd be any less transparent than the examples provided. Our rules and procedures are not changing, and Senior Moderators+ will continue to oversee that they are being enforced properly just the same; people also have a means the same as games to communicate with moderators, make abuse reports, and provide staff feedback all the same our game servers. Yes, people with high infraction account should be worried. Having a high infraction count is worrisome no matter where you go. I do hope they change their path and we will do our best to work with them. This is pretty standard. 6 hours ago, Joshy said: When something happens for 5-10 people on our Discords… that’s a actually a really tiny number we’d love to drive down to zero 6 hours ago, Joshy said: I’ve made no secret of it ever that that these small 5-10 people…. no particular individuals at all…. if they have a history and frequent number of infractions, then they should be concern. The best part about this update, though, is that this announcement has zero impact on their outcome. We hope those individuals will make positive contributions to the community and stay with us for a long time, but there will be no confusion when we enforce the rules on those individuals. I personally would like to keep the thread open, but I do think it's not being very productive anymore. We've made the announcements and clarified on a few questions, and so it has fulfilled its purpose. I suppose if someone above me disagrees, then I would have no ill feelings if they'd like to reopen it again. Edited February 22, 2022 by Joshy Share this post Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...