MOTD KOSable Issues

[Adversary 96 / 2,197]

Rules that I disagree with and would like more addressing and clarification on and perhaps even some changes

I have noticed over the time that I have spent here there is a very common and negatively impactful set of rules that should have some proper and open addressing with players. This would be in the Rules what classifies as KOSable (Kill on sight)
There are tons of problematic and even controversial rules within this category and I feel as though it is time to discuss them openly and address the issues these rules bring and how they can negatively impact the game while also maybe finding some common grounds for the average player's enjoyment.

for reference the Current MOTD link https://gflclan.com/forums/topic/39156-ttt-rotation-motd/


Discombobulator
For the sake of everyone's sanity, I will not argue the "Discombobulators" being KOSable rule. However, this does not mean I agree with the rule nor disagree with it either. There are arguments for both sides and ultimately I think having it be KOSable if thrown towards players or in a radius which can affect them is when it should be KOSable because of the RISK it has on a player in general. A Discombobulator grenade is a forceful and even RNG based way to reposition someone, who is more than often put them in danger or in a spot where they are more likely to be harmed. For this reason, the rule is justified and should not be used in the rest of the context of this post. 

Although it should really be enforced that simply throwing a discombobulator/incendiary NOT KOSable, but rather how it is literally stated within the rules and how I also reinforced in the statement above; the grenade has to be within a distance where it affects a player or to put simply if the nade is thrown near or at players.


Guilty By Association
although this rule is not as common as someone throwing a nade and trying to determine if it should be KOSable or not, I still think it should use some more proper and open addressing for the community to be able to understand what these rules cover and what they do not.

Guilty by association or GBA can cover many important situations which none of the rules fully cover and to also add it is quite limited with the examples it lists, there only being 1 example shown. As someone who has the experience and who also utilizes this fully, I will try to explain as much as I can so that everyone knows and understands what this concept of GBA is and why I consider it problematic even if I know its limits and what it can and cannot cover.

GBA as said in the example is being in a position where if you are spotted with a Traitor who is blatantly KOS, whether they are shooting people or as little as walking around with an AK out. Being in a position where you NEED to take action in preventing more deaths because accountability has been forced onto you is ultimately the core concept. It is common for a Traitor to watch their buddy do traitorous acts and to not participate and helping alongside them because it is uncoordinated and risky, which they may judge the better call is to wait for a more opportune moment to strike where they are in control. However, this rule can assist Innocents in preventing further damage to their team and the remaining survivors by deducting who actively went out of their way to prevent deaths and who did not.
(Example: The Traitor shooting people with an AK and someone following alongside them, neither of them harming each other.)
With this in mind, there is a clear risk presented in your timing and where you are. If you are not careful you may stumble across a gunfight and you are not sure who to shoot until the bullets settle down. However, if there are 2 people left and they choose not to ID bodies and proceed to walk away it is a safe bet to assume both are together and KOS both for GBA using that logic.

GBA is complicated and very situational so it can have many many variations but it ultimately comes down to the concept of someone's responsibility and accountability as an Innocent preventing further deaths. If you do not actively try and stop a Traitor you are at risk for being held accountable alongside that Traitor regardless if you are on the Traitor team or not. Which is why new players can have a harder time understanding when to do what and who to shoot, if they are too careful they may end up being killed alongside the Traitor despite not actively doing anything.

With that bit of explanation out of the way the main reason this rule can be problematic is that while people who are more experienced can utilize this rule fully because they understand the concept and its limits as well. This cannot be said for everyone because it boils down to someone's judgement and the line of logic behind their conclusion and the next action they take. Some players do not understand this complicated rule and with the fact that it also is not properly addressed in the MOTD (or any easy to access place) for people to refer back to they may be punished so they do not utilize it enough. Random players are not the only ones who do not understand the rule though, I have seen staff also not know how to properly handle certain situations involving GBA and they often hand out false punishments which further the fact that people do not want to take the risk in trying to follow the GBA rule. This can also lead to false information being spread because a staff's word is to be held higher than others but this is flawed when some staff may say X thing and the other staff may say Y thing and many more in between.


Dead-Giveaway
As for "dead-giveaway", despite the name can be complicated to players who try and have logic behind their decisions, such as buying a Radar and trying to use the tabs shown to deduce who the traitor could be amongst them. I think there should be more clarifications and open knowledge for people to refer back to on the matter, rather than possibly finding out through mistakes and trial and error like I have when I originally joined.

More importantly, I think we should also NOT refine rules around these situations because if we ONLY follow rules then there are bound to be people who look to loophole around them all entirely much like JuicyBenny has in the past due to rules being too strictly refined around 1 or only a handful of given situations despite the game being much larger than those limited scenarios. Having a super-refined set of rules takes away from many concepts of the game especially the most important one which is using "Logic", but rules encourage appealing to the staff who enforce the rules far too aggressively instead.


Traitor-Only Accessible Items
Traitor equipment is a defining feature in TTT which can help enable Traitors in doing their job much easier allowing them to pick and choose from their available options. Although it does come with a risk. These Traitor-only options include, but are not limited to; Traitor Rooms, and Traitor Weapons/utility. The issue with these items and the rule on what is KOSable and what is not can become quite annoying to deal with especially for the average player and is unnecessarily complicated which can only add to the frustration.

Traitor Weapons- Currently you HAVE to call out when you retrieve any Traitor weapon/Utility with a statement such as "I have a Silenced M4A1" or "I am claiming a Silenced Pistol" in Text Chat, voice chat simply does not count as claiming.
With this being said it is quite obvious what the issue is. You cannot have any typo or technically you did not properly call it out. To avoid typos and reduce time spent typing due to it being extremely risky to stand still to type if you are innocent, people will shorten their words to "claim m4" which is still VERY problematic because that means it is a lot easier to miss in chat and new players may not understand what that even means.
If you happened to miss someone briefly saying something like "claim ak" and you happen to kill them, you WILL be slain if they do not forgive a report and that is incredibly frustrating because the risk should not be on you for making the understandable mistake but rather the person who is actively taking a risk trying to utilize traitor only equipment fully knowing what it means to hold such items. in front of others.
I have been against using T only items and the "claiming T weapon" system because it causes lots of issues for the average player and reports where you have to slay someone for shooting someone else for having an item which normally Traitors only have access to. However, this does not mean I think Traitor weapons should not be picked up by innocent's but rather if you are Innocent you should acknowledge the fact you are actively risking your own life to have a powerful weapon which is intended for Traitors-only but not restricted to only their use.
To combat people from just shooting anyone who holds a funny looking gun, I think it should be under the logic that if someone is proven and announce they are proven they are not in a position to KOS'd for having that item but at the same time you cannot fault people for making genuine mistakes and it should be thought about when making reports. Rather than Admins setting up rules so they have an easier time making judgement calls. Forcing people to type in chat is ignoring the bigger issue at hand rather than fixing it. Either Traitor Weapons should come with a risk or if you wish to alleviate some of that risk you should have very accessible options such as binds to help further the accessibility and so you do not have to risk your own life just to make an admin's job that much easier. 
This whole rule is super toxic because it leads to people having more opportunities to kill proven Innocents or get unjust slays in their favour because now a rule fully backs them up and they can RDM a proven Innocent for not wanting to stand still to type something. This excuse to RDM is very clear in the fact that some people even try to stretch it to a point where even if you do not equip the Traitor Item people will ask you to claim it in chat before they KOS you despite you not having it out just because they saw you pick it off the floor. I do not agree with such an abusable rule at all but if we do have it we should really have a system in which we can call it out in chat with binds so that admins can have an easier time but more importantly the players can have a much easier and more enjoyable time as well. The server should not prioritize admin's quality of life over the player's.

With an added ability to just hit a button and tell everyone "Hey look, I am proven, please do not shoot me because I either tested or killed a T" it stands out a lot and is MUCH harder to miss in chat and immediately you can recognize their name because it's a lengthy post in the game chat box. It should go without saying that whoever that person is, is not to be shot for doing traitorous acts because they are likely proven and if they are a T well what can I say other than pay attention and try to use logic in what you believe in. and it is apart of the mind games. 
The current system only benefits Staff and Traitors, since Traitors can claim a weapon in chat with next to 0 risk and they can no longer be KOS'd for having a Traitor only item out which normally would NOT be possible.
A much more ideal system I like is understanding the risk of what it means to hold out a Traitor weapon as an Innocent and embracing that, and you should look to find a way to become proven before using it openly because you should never kill a proven. (unless they are posing a threat to your life and you act in self-defence) Simple as that. We should not be looking to add even more strict toxic rules that people can abuse for kills.

Traitor Rooms- If you are lucky enough to squeeze into a Traitor Room you should be allowed to kill people who are in there for the obvious logic of "It is a Traitor Only room = Ts only lounge". But what if someone calls out they infiltrated a Traitor Room, can you no longer KOS them? Yes and no, unfortunately, if they turn out to be innocent and they report you, you will be slain which is incredibly dumb but if they are a T the report will be disregarded which does not make much sense because of the previous example with an Innocent report.

Traitor Rooms should really follow the same logic as the Traitor Weapons, if you are a Proven Innocent in a T room you should NOT be KOS, However, if you are unproven and in a Traitor Room, you CAN be subject to KOS. That is simple and that is how it really should be. Overcomplicating rules and trying to rationalize situations in a complex game that is flexible around logic and scenarios depending on the available information a player has at a certain time in-game only leads to further problems. You cannot list every situation which will happen and you cannot set up rules which will make everyone happy. So the better alternative would be to have core concepts in place and teach them through the MOTD and what you can do as an average player to "not get shot".

TL;DR
Proven binds should cover Traitor Weapons (and Traitor Room access if eligible)


Final words
Hopefully, some people take the time to look through and read what I had to say about each topic and understand that I only wish to have common grounds for making admin decisions and information being easier to obtain + having player's quality of life improved. Which can be hard to balance out and I understand this. But as someone who cares deeply about both sides, I really wish to improve the quality of life for players more. Without the community, a server is as good as closed so players are to be prioritized in my opinion.
Thank you for reading however much you chose to.



Sincerely,
 

 

[Male_08 403 / 0]

That’s long

[Kettermelon 136 / 4,927]

this looks more like an overcomplication of rules, so basically the motd says discombobs and incends can be KOSd if thrown near players, so as long as it hits a player you may KOS them for it. But since discombobs thrown away from players effect no one, KOSing players off of it just makes you a dick, Incends on the other hand have an AoE meaning regardless of where you throw them they have a higher chance of causing harm so just throwong them in general is greatly discouraged unless you are a T. 

 

The GBA rule is relatively simple, if they are seen near a KOS'd person/obvious Traitor(a T actively killing or using a T weapon) that they can see then you may KOS, If your example is about me slaying you for KOSing me off of GBA, not only was the T shooting at you out of my FoV, but I couldnt even see them if I had turned as there was a wall between us. So before you KOS for GBA, its advised you make sure they can actually see and do something about the T, and if the player is a proven innocent(proven via valid KOS or tester) or a D, then the admins will handle it as its teaming. 

 

T weapons are also simple, if you claim it in chat its not on you if the player doesnt see it. Obviously Ds or Innos proven by proveable means(KOS, vouched for by a D, or tested) then you do not have to claim T weapons, otherwise calling out the specific T weapon is a must if you wish to use it. While proven binds may no longer cover it, you can make binds to call out one or two T weapons at a time, for me I use 4 binds to call out the 8 most common T weapons such as sword, AWP, Ak, sm4, jihad, and holy. 9/10 if a player doesnt know what a weapon is they ask, and normally people will answer. Now if a T claims the weapon but no Ts are dead then you can KOS as theres no legit way for them to aquire it, If you see them holding it, dont KOS soley because they claimed it.

 

T room is KOS unless you are a D or proven VIA KOS or Tester, no buts or what ifs, if you are seen entering or leaving one you are fair grounds to be KOS'd.

 

as for Dead Give aways, its not all that refined, as long as its obvious who the T is and you can prove with sufficient evidence its them you may KOS, Radar I feel is a bad example as Decoys and Disguisers mess with it, but if someone does not have a radar ping it means they have a decoy down and you can probably use that.

[Adversary 96 / 2,197]

Ketter I think you missed the points but ok

[Kettermelon 136 / 4,927]

oooohhh, im not saying that your suggestions are over complicated, but the way you described the current rules you discussed here. Alot of what you said is already in place.

 

if im wrong about certian things feel free to correct me, im just going off of what I know

Edited November 13, 2020 by Kettermelon
took me a min to understand

[AlphaOwl 307 / 7,583]

I think so far we can all agree that the discombob rules are fine as they are, and only matter if it's thrown near or at players.

 

For the T weapons, I do agree with Add that as an innocent with a traitor weapon, it's your liability if you're the one holding it out. However, I do agree with Ketter in that most often than the randoms who notice will ask about the weapon and the player or others would explain that the person is proven or claimed it. I guess what I'm trying to get at is that yeah you may have a claimed T weapon, but it definitely is up to you if you're getting shot by other innos because of it, and that both sides of this have to be careful in general.

 

As for the T rooms, although I haven't seen any of it happen to me previously, I do think that no matter what if you are seen in a T room as an unproven innocent you are by all means in the open grounds for KOS. The thing about innocents sending reports if they were killed whilst they were in the T room should be disregarded, since they shouldn't be camping there regardless and it's a kosable place nonetheless. Basically, just get your T kills and get out.

 

Guilty by Association is quite a tough one to really give a concise explanation. I do think it can be cleared up a bit better in the MOTD, as I use this quite often to my advantage to knock down 2-3 traitors when only one of them is really doing something kosable. I guess a good example could be last week on ttt_mttresort, where I noticed Add was by the door with an unid body below her, and continued to not do so, so I kosed her. Knowing that I wasn't hitting any shots on her, I noticed all the people around her that were not openly killing her even with a clear KOS. So anyone trying to walk back into the hotel through the main entrance I ended up shooting (which truth be told, they were all Ts). Although they can't necessarily join the gunfight me and Add started, many of them passed the unid bodies on the outside and one at the front entrance, thus they were on the grounds of being kosed. Other innocents could have walked into the gunfight, but I personally don't join until someone starts shooting at me, to which I do. With this understanding, I think other players can apply this mindset and not hesitate to prove their innocence under those circumstances, and thus a line should be added to the gunfights rule about this contingency. I feel like in general, more players need a better understanding of this rule as Add mentioned, as they may not completely understand how this single rule is very helpful for knowledgable players. It's not a very clear-concise rule, rather confusing (as it says not shooting a kosed person when in fact you shouldn't join gunfights), and that it should be better detailed (maybe replace the line with known traitor instead of KOSed). There's a lot to consider when thinking about this one, but I just thought I'd share my two cents on it.

 

I really don't know what to say about Dead Giveaway, there's a lot of things that do in fact need to be explained. I think in general for the logic statement in the motd, there needs to be an additional line of (last unproven), as most often I feel like I need to explain it in reports cause I've been keeping tabs throughout the game on who's good/bad. I also think that radar should be added to the list of non-kosable (but suspicious) actions you could use. Would clear up the room a lot more. I don't want to get too deep into this one because similar to Guilty by Association there's a lot to consider when it comes into play. I do think those could be added to MOTD though.

 

Anyways don't know if I really got my point clear, but basically I agree that the MOTD could be cleared up much better and that some folks shouldn't loophole their reports based off of strict understandings of the MOTD. It's good to understand the rules, but it's also good to know what could be wrong with it at times.

 

EDIT: I think there can also be some more clarification in the rules involving defining a kos off of flare gun burnt bodies and scorch marks. Although the body obviously burning is kosable as it's disposing of DNA evidence, some people may use scorch marks as a method of justification that a body was burnt to kos someone. Just needs some better defining in the MOTD that's all.

 

EDIT 2: After a discussion that took place yesterday or so, I think that the link rule should just generally be No links allowed at all. It's hard for admins to discern whether the slightest of simple links could lead to any forsaken imagery/video, which may lead to arguments between players and admins because of the current contingency that the links don't violate the explicit rule, yet the admins wouldn't know that unless they checked. So to simplify things, link posting in-game should just be not allowed at all, as that way admins don't have to worry about it and players would know when they're crossing the line, even though it may not necessarily be a bad link. 

Edited November 16, 2020 by AlphaOwl
Added additional edit involving clarification around flare guns and scorch marks. Added an edit that suggests changing link rule to not allowing links at all in-game.

[Nocapp 21 / 0]

Firstly let me say I don't want this to be seen as talking sides with anyone I do believe adversary brought up some good point in things wrong with the MOTD there is lots in there that should be stated clear as to not confuse new player to TTT For eg. 

• Being seen in the traitor room (if its not possible for innocents to access it)
• Throwing incendiary grenades or discombobulators at or near players.

These in my opinion aren't very clear especially the T room one everyone knows (who has experience) that T room's if you aren't proven 100% (eg portable tester ) then a innocent walking out of a said t room is KOS but no where in the rules does it say if you are proven you are a allowed run in and walk out it says that there are a KOS no matter what even if said player walks as a proven innocent (via tester) and also KOSES and kills a T if that person then left the T room they can still be KOSED according to the rules which would lead to frustration on said player part.

 

The GBA rule is not that simple for new player to TTT to understand but if I am reading correctly Adversary Simply Wants the rule to be more clear and easier for people to understand so people that don't know what is right and wrong in certain Situations don't end up RDMING I don't really wanna touch anymore on this topic cause I feel we have went in depth enough on it but do know that I think it could be cleared up better in the MOTD 

 

I want to Touch on a few point that ketter made the first one being T weapons. Claiming multiple weapon in the same bind is not allowed by the rules as it say and I quote 

• Having a traitor weapon or equipment that has not been declared to have been picked up. (You must claim the Specific Equipment/Weapon in Text chat, in example: Claiming Teleporter, or AS Val) <<<<< As VAL OMEGA

Meaning that Its must be claimed by saying "Claiming Sm4" so therefore those Key that you have Binded are invalid and you would and could be KOSED off them and to be Realistic no one is gonna bind 8 keys on there keyboard to claim weapons as some people Have other binds set up to buy T Armor or certain T weapon which take up space on there keyboard and in the case of alpha you have no space on your keyboard cause that man has like 15 say bind XD So I do think this rule should be "all or nothing" meaning one bind claims all T weapons or (any person seen with a T weapon is KOS which is a bad idea in itself ) the other proposed solution is make people type out every time they acquired a T weapon(s) which is flawed cause that require the player to stand still and that could mean life or death (in most cases death ) 

 

TBH I think the MOTD need a overall makeover making it easy Understand and having the most necessary rule at the top as well as looking at Some of the rules and adjusting them accordingly 

 

I want people to know this is not shit talking anyone or the Sm's I want the rules to be as clear as possible so everyone can have a good time 😄

 

TL;DR

Smh read the Post

 

(Also sorry if the post is hard to read or there is Spelling mistakes I'm bad at both for Reasons) 

 

~ Thnks fr Raeding ~

"DINK"

 

 

 

 

[Kettermelon 136 / 4,927]

1 hour ago, Nocapp said:

Claiming multiple weapon in the same bind is not allowed by the rules as it say and I quote 

• Having a traitor weapon or equipment that has not been declared to have been picked up. (You must claim the Specific Equipment/Weapon in Text chat, in example: Claiming Teleporter, or AS Val) <<<<< As VAL OMEGA

Meaning that Its must be claimed by saying "Claiming Sm4" so therefore those Key that you have Binded are invalid and you would and could be KOSED off them and to be Realistic no one is gonna bind 8 keys on there keyboard to claim weapons

First off, I have confirmed with the person who set the rule in place that having 1-2 weapons in a claim bind is fine as long as it doesnt list more then that, as the rule is there to prevent binds saying they have a T weapon but not saying which weapon they have. So any KOS off of them will be considered RDM. 

I dont, however know the exact reason the rule was changed to be specific weapons, but a few binds can go a long way when claiming, and I dont think its going to be changed back.

1 hour ago, Nocapp said:

but no where in the rules does it say if you are proven you are a allowed run in and walk out it says that there are a KOS no matter what even if said player walks as a proven innocent (via tester) and also KOSES and kills a T if that person then left the T room they can still be KOSED according to the rules which would lead to frustration on said player part.

Second, if you are proven, and there is sufficient evidence that you are proven then you may not be KOS'd for entering the T room, as its made so that Ts can be KOSd for entering it, and I mean, really its common sense if someone whos proven innocent where to walk into the T room, why would you KOS them? You know they are proven, and if you call a KOS on them you are more than likely to be corrected. If you are unproven and you enter the T room, you made the choice so getting KOSd shouldnt be surprising, I do understand that new players may not know what is considered a T room and have seen it happen quite a few times where a new player will wander in and get KOS'd but in reality theres not really all that much to prevent that other then having a T room that kills innocents. Most T rooms are unique, but alot still do have the classic orange tiled walls so that can be specified in the motd. 

 

 

The MOTD isnt designed to portray every senario, case, or problem. Its a jist of the rules so people know the basics of what to do and what not to do, I do agree some areas can be touched up on, but alot of people just treat it as another pop up and go by trial and error or by asking questions, which the players on the server who are familiar with the rules are more than happy to answer.

[Adversary 96 / 2,197]

I heavily disagree with your final statement, Ketter.

The MOTD is very very important within the community because it explains the basics of the rules and gameplay flow and what you can and cannot do, it sets boundaries for the player. You should not learn rules from a 'he said she said' system because it is more than heavily flawed and admins and players will abuse this because then they can just backtrack and say 'well I was told..' when there needs to be clear rules in place and consistency within them.

Also people do read the MOTD, I know because I have heard it and I often refer back to it when I can, people who do not typically do not care about the rules all that much and will learn improperly.



(P.S the gist of the rules can be found within F1 in game and referenced through peers and regulars as well as admins, the MOTD IS the rules which should be referred back to often)

Edited November 13, 2020 by Adversary

[Nocapp 21 / 0]

Look not to say that bias but it kinda is the MOTD should be updated  so all player can understand that not just a player who has contact With the higher ups If a new player wants to get on and play by the rules they shouldn't have to join the discord and ping the higher up to avoid slays and to say that most admins will help with this is CAP cause most admin would have different opinion on the matter unless its stated in the MOTD which is the guideline that the admin use to decide if a slay/ban is justified or not having it say stuff like this will confuse people and lead to smart asses finding loopholes to avoid being slayed so if you ask me these rule need to be updated so that stuff like this wont happen 

 

"Second, if you are proven, and there is sufficient evidence that you are proven then you may not be KOS'd for entering the T room" 

 

I get this but the rules say that it does not matter and once again there will be people in the future that will abuse that and if you slay them unfortunately you will be in the wrong cause all they are doing is following the rules 

 

"as its made so that Ts can be KOSd for entering it, and I mean, really its common sense if someone whos proven innocent where to walk into the T room, why would you KOS them?"

 

Once again its the rule so in that sense I could complain about it and the admin would be in the wrong cause they aren't following the guideline put in place for them to follow cause as it states the "T room is KOS."

 

"a lot of people just treat it as another pop up and go by trial and error or by asking questions"

 

the MOTD is Not just a pop up its the rules for the server treating it like anything else would be stupid by that logic disregarding the MOTD and treating it like any other pop up is a very bad example, and it should be respected and i do not think you're giving it enough credit  I know you might not treat it like that but to say that encourages bad behaver and that not what we should be promoting

 

to be honest the MOTD as I said before Needs to clear cause it can cause a lot of confusion and unnecessary frustration for players 

 

(also I do know that this exist )

• Do not try to loophole/abuse the ruleset.

(doesn't mean people aren't gonna try to abuse it )

 

To be clear not a hit-piece on you ketter (although it may look like that )

I just want everyone to under the rules and not have mass hysteria on the server cause one admin told them this and that wasn't right 

 

(Also sorry if the post is hard to read or there is Spelling mistakes I'm bad at both for Reasons) 

 

~Thnks fr rdng~

 

"DINK"

 

 

 

 

 

[edboy 61 / 1,337]

breach my ass