(terror?) Attack in Munich Germany.

[CheapTactic 74 / 3,855]

An attack by an Iranian ''German'' in Munich led to 9 dead and around 20 injured, the attacker most likely committed suicide.

 

 

 

[Coolest Cat 1,266 / 14,449]

I honestly don't think that this is religiously motivated.

 

In that brief argument he had with that guy on the rooftop, it seemed like it was more a troubled person feeling bullied by others and taking out his revenge. Sounds very school shooter-y to me. But we'll have to wait and see. Wouldn't be surprised if ISIS tries to claim responsibility even if they're not involved. 

[CheapTactic 74 / 3,855]

1 minute ago, Major_Push said:

I honestly don't think that this is religiously motivated.

 

In that brief argument he had with that guy on the rooftop, it seemed like it was more a troubled person feeling bullied by others and taking out his revenge. Sounds very school shooter-y to me. But we'll have to wait and see. Wouldn't be surprised if ISIS tries to claim responsibility even if they're not involved. 

Brief argument?Can you show the source?Because I have not found it yet.

The police have concluded that there was only one shooter, and it was the Iranian guy that shot himself.

There are actually some witnesses that claim that they have heard the shooter scream allahu ackbar, there is literally NONE where I have found where your claim holds, I double checked and didn't find any source that claims that there was an argument on any roof or anywhere else nor any bullying and etc....

Here are the sources:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3703705/Major-police-investigation-way-shots-fired-shopping-centre-Munich.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/22/shots-fired-at-munich-shopping-centre/

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/22/europe/germany-munich-shooting/

 

This could very be another Islamist Shia? Terror attack, the Iranian public still despises the west so its very possible, or this could be a sunni Iranian that could have been influenced by the radicals in the mosques, anyways ISIS officially I don't  will take responsibility since he is Iranian and maybe Shia.

[Coolest Cat 1,266 / 14,449]

3 minutes ago, CheapTactic said:

Brief argument?Can you show the source?Because I have not found it yet.

The police have concluded that there was only one shooter, and it was the Iranian guy that shot himself.

There are actually some witnesses that claim that they have heard the shooter scream allahu ackbar, there is literally NONE where I have found where your claim holds, I double checked and didn't find any source that claims that there was an argument on any roof or anywhere else nor any bullying and etc....

Here are the sources:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3703705/Major-police-investigation-way-shots-fired-shopping-centre-Munich.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07/22/shots-fired-at-munich-shopping-centre/

http://edition.cnn.com/2016/07/22/europe/germany-munich-shooting/

 

This could very be another Islamist Shia? Terror attack, the Iranian public still despises the west so its very possible, or this could be a sunni Iranian that could have been influenced by the radicals in the mosques, anyways ISIS officially I don't  will take responsibility since he is Iranian and maybe Shia.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4u3ljt/shots_fired_in_munich_shopping_centre/d5mqkxw

 

 

There's some other translations on Reddit but they're all pretty similar. Interpret it however you want. 

 

[CheapTactic 74 / 3,855]

12 minutes ago, Major_Push said:

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/worldnews/comments/4u3ljt/shots_fired_in_munich_shopping_centre/d5mqkxw

 

 

There's some other translations on Reddit but they're all pretty similar.

 

Yeah I have found more sources by myself now, hmmm weird that he claims that he is German and was born there(Although I can't find any place that says he was born there) yet yelled allahu ackbar when shot people.

 

And lets be honest, its quite a "coincidence" that this attack came just after the terror attack in Nice and the previous terror attack in Germany that happened after Nice.....Anyways lets see what the police that hid the sexual assault cases will have to say about this case.

Maybe Holllande has gotten up to something.

Edited July 23, 2016 by CheapTactic

[Coolest Cat 1,266 / 14,449]

It's starting to look more and more like it wasn't religiously motivated and that this was just a mentally ill dude taking out his revenge because he was bullied in school.

 

Sickening. 

 

 

I'd also like to say that the response from several people online have also been sickening. It's amazing how quickly people began using it to push their political agenda without even having all the facts yet. It's quite disrespectful seeing people use another person's death to push their political agenda. 

[CNe7532294 171 / 4,777]

You know with all this news I've just realized or rerealized something. All these attacks whether its Columbine or Bastille have one common denominator. The people committing them had problems and never really fit into the society they were put in. Sure the shooter, terrorist, bomb maker, etc is at fault for making this decision but what comes before is 100% crucial and is never really addressed.

 

Going into their mindset and playing a severe case of devil's advocate, I can actually see why mass killing is a good choice to make. People call you stupid for doing or believing in xyz in society while playing life. However you have access to news and social media. Look at how many commentators whether they be part of the news or the comments section, bicker and argue about their beliefs when they know nothing about your true intent. Their blather makes them look just as stupid for being so divisive and what not. Not to mention media glorifies killings for weeks on end and well yes mass killing becomes a viable option to become "successful" much like making money by getting kids drugged up on drugs.

 

TL;DR: These criminals were failures in their society and then were kicked in while down on their luck. So in some attempt to turn around their bad luck they'll find any way to make the very society that made them look stupid look stupid in return. Migrants and children of migrants are especially vulnerable to this sick mindset since they'll have a hard time adjusting away from the values their family grew up in. If its a local person, usually its some sort of weird/bad value they obtained themselves while living in their society. The only possible solution I could see is if locals play their part and don't make things worst than they are. Of course this solution is hard to work out given how complicated the world works.

 

Hope this all makes some sort of sense but thats the way it seems to me to be the case.

Edited July 23, 2016 by CNe7532294

[gS-Gavin 7 / 2,518]

Far too many attacks have happened in 2016. I don't like where this year is heading or what the future still holds.

[CNe7532294 171 / 4,777]

2 minutes ago, gS-Gavin said:

Far too many attacks have happened in 2016. I don't like where this year is heading or what the future still holds.

 

Agreed, the problems are never really addressed and

 

22 minutes ago, Major_Push said:

I'd also like to say that the response from several people online have also been sickening. It's amazing how quickly people began using it to push their political agenda without even having all the facts yet. It's quite disrespectful seeing people use another person's death to push their political agenda. 

 

this^

[CheapTactic 74 / 3,855]

On 7/23/2016 at 11:22 PM, Major_Push said:

It's starting to look more and more like it wasn't religiously motivated and that this was just a mentally ill dude taking out his revenge because he was bullied in school.

 

Sickening. 

 

 

I'd also like to say that the response from several people online have also been sickening. It's amazing how quickly people began using it to push their political agenda without even having all the facts yet. It's quite disrespectful seeing people use another person's death to push their political agenda. 

Eh, it does seem like that, it was weird that he screamed allahu ackbar, but never mind, there were 2 and probably more newer cases of Islamic terror, but I guess that will be ignored?

What is disrespectful is when also mentally ill liberal  women blame innocent natural citizens for their rape cases when it was the good engineers and high tech workers that came from Africa and the Middle east.

Edited July 26, 2016 by CheapTactic

[CheapTactic 74 / 3,855]

On 7/23/2016 at 11:41 PM, CNe7532294 said:

You know with all this news I've just realized or rerealized something. All these attacks whether its Columbine or Bastille have one common denominator. The people committing them had problems and never really fit into the society they were put in. Sure the shooter, terrorist, bomb maker, etc is at fault for making this decision but what comes before is 100% crucial and is never really addressed.

 

Going into their mindset and playing a severe case of devil's advocate, I can actually see why mass killing is a good choice to make. People call you stupid for doing or believing in xyz in society while playing life. However you have access to news and social media. Look at how many commentators whether they be part of the news or the comments section, bicker and argue about their beliefs when they know nothing about your true intent. Their blather makes them look just as stupid for being so divisive and what not. Not to mention media glorifies killings for weeks on end and well yes mass killing becomes a viable option to become "successful" much like making money by getting kids drugged up on drugs.

 

TL;DR: These criminals were failures in their society and then were kicked in while down on their luck. So in some attempt to turn around their bad luck they'll find any way to make the very society that made them look stupid look stupid in return. Migrants and children of migrants are especially vulnerable to this sick mindset since they'll have a hard time adjusting away from the values their family grew up in. If its a local person, usually its some sort of weird/bad value they obtained themselves while living in their society. The only possible solution I could see is if locals play their part and don't make things worst than they are. Of course this solution is hard to work out given how complicated the world works.

 

Hope this all makes some sort of sense but thats the way it seems to me to be the case.

I don't believe that in any point, sounds like more of the "booo hooo poor babies got hurt so they kill people" liberal argument, when its not the truth, not in Israel nor in Europe.

People live worse than their conditions and still don't go on murder rampages, people live on their conditions and still don't go on murder sprees.

The common factor in these kind of terrorists are that they are all what a surprise MUSLIMS, radical Muslims who went to kill on dozens of people because of their barbaric culture and religion that will NEVER work with the western values.

 

Sure, this Muslim that killed wasn't one that killed for his extreme religious conservatism, but for his mental state(basically like the human filth in America that shoots up schools) but that is immediately followed yet again by more Islamist terror attacks that are grown on Religious conservatism and pumped by it to the point of being a religious 'soldier'..Surrounded by religious theocratic members of their society including in the western areas for example the mosques that are know to promote violent and religious conservatism on the people and throw them on a path of a martyr. 

 

The invaders have it easier than any Muslim that came legally from normal countries, that has an educational degree and can get work in those countries and have to work their asses off to promise a good future, those leeches and their swarm of "innocent" kids(which is complete bullshit since their kids are violent as well) are getting it well sucking the blood of fine nations while destroying their own.

The only way to work it out is to deport them back to the hole they came from, they are unwilling to change and AN AN AN AN EXTREMELY small part of them are actually capable of working.

The country should stay for the locals and not for the locust that came in a swarm.

They don't belong in any of our countries just like we and our imperialism doesn't belong in their lands. 

These 'immigrants' should be thankful that countries take them EVEN after they pass other safe countries just because they don't have the same retarded social policies that allow people to be blood suckers and still allow them in even after countless terror and violence waves that they bring with them along with unemployment and barbarism. 

 

Like Trump said, bring them only from the normal places, and I myself don't care if its only one Muslim country that has by large a normal Muslim society.

Edited July 26, 2016 by CheapTactic

[Coolest Cat 1,266 / 14,449]

15 hours ago, CheapTactic said:

Eh, it does seem like that, it was weird that he screamed allahu ackbar, but never mind, there were 2 and probably more newer cases of Islamic terror, but I guess that will be ignored?

What is disrespectful is when also mentally ill liberal  women blame innocent natural citizens for their rape cases when it was the good engineers and high tech workers that came from Africa and the Middle east.

 

Nice strawman. The point is that both sides are quick to push their agenda using any tragedy even when the facts are still coming out. It's just stupid. People have to wait for the facts to come out before arguing about things or else they're arguing over nothing but what they think the world should be while ignoring actual facts. Also, the people who are so hardpressed on defending the immigrants who commit a crime are indeed being stupid. Anyway, stop thinking that because you're a conservative that you're better than liberals. It's annoying seeing liberals and conservatives call each other cancers or other stupid shit like that. It's immature as hell. Please don't just blatantly attack other people you don't agree with them. If you want to name call other people then do that else where. The forums should be used for discussions. 

 

 

 

 

14 hours ago, CheapTactic said:

I don't believe that in any point, sounds like more of the "booo hooo poor babies got hurt so they kill people" liberal argument, when its not the truth, not in Israel nor in Europe.

People live worse than their conditions and still don't go on murder rampages, people live on their conditions and still don't go on murder sprees.

The common factor in these kind of terrorists are that they are all what a surprise MUSLIMS, radical Muslims who went to kill on dozens of people because of their barbaric culture and religion that will NEVER work with the western values.

 

Sure, this Muslim that killed wasn't one that killed for his extreme religious conservatism, but for his mental state(basically like the human filth in America that shoots up schools) but that is immediately followed yet again by more Islamist terror attacks that are grown on Religious conservatism and pumped by it to the point of being a religious 'soldier'..Surrounded by religious theocratic members of their society including in the western areas for example the mosques that are know to promote violent and religious conservatism on the people and throw them on a path of a martyr. 

 

The invaders have it easier than any Muslim that came legally from normal countries, that has an educational degree and can get work in those countries and have to work their asses off to promise a good future, those leeches and their swarm of "innocent" kids(which is complete bullshit since their kids are violent as well) are getting it well sucking the blood of fine nations while destroying their own.

The only way to work it out is to deport them back to the hole they came from, they are unwilling to change and AN AN AN AN EXTREMELY small part of them are actually capable of working.

The country should stay for the locals and not for the locust that came in a swarm.

They don't belong in any of our countries just like we and our imperialism doesn't belong in their lands. 

These 'immigrants' should be thankful that countries take them EVEN after they pass other safe countries just because they don't have the same retarded social policies that allow people to be blood suckers and still allow them in even after countless terror and violence waves that they bring with them along with unemployment and barbarism. 

 

Like Trump said, bring them only from the normal places, and I myself don't care if its only one Muslim country that has by large a normal Muslim society.

 

People who feel rejected by society are at a much higher risk than normal people to doing radical shit. Look at almost any of the school shooters in the U.S. or look at this Munich Shooter (who this thread was about).  Does it describe everybody? No. Is it an issue that should be addressed? Yes. 

 

I don't get how it's some liberal argument that's not true. It's pretty safe to say that people who fit in are less likely to do things out of the ordinary. People tend to dislike "different" people. If someone feels left out then it makes sense why they have a dislike for those who exclude them. Does it in anyway justify these barbaric acts? No. But it's important to try and understand why these things happen to prevent them. And when I say "these things", I mean school shootings and some terrorist attacks. 

 

The solution most of the time is also rather simple for the issue of people feeling rejected:

People shouldn't be dicks to other people for no reason. People bullying other people because of their race, religion, sexuality, wealth, etc. is incredibly harmful to begin with. Of course there are some people who just naturally don't fit in. I don't quite know how one would fix that problem...

 

And to address your whole argument:

I believe that Germany shouldn't have accepted so many immigrants all at once since it doesn't give any time to assimilate and because it is a massive safety hazard. Yes, some immigrants are going to be shitty people since people in general are shitty like that.

 

The problem I have with just labeling all immigrants as lazy rapist jihadists is that it's utterly stupid and just promotes misguided anger. People are innocent until proven guilty. Treating immigrants like shit even if they themselves aren't doing anything wrong is how you get racial problems down the line (like the U.S. with African Americans). Terrorism today is an issue that should be addressed. The solution, however, shouldn't be to just start hating all Muslim immigrants because that just sets up future problems. 

 

Regardless, I suppose that I should let Europe do whatever the fuck it wants to do since I'm in America. All I hope is that innocent Muslims and immigrants who are decent people don't get persecuted for no reason. 

 

P.S. I think that Germany was stupid in accepting so many immigrants since that's a lot of unknown people coming in a very short period of time from what is known to be an unstable country. It's not racist to be safe. But being safe doesn't require treating others like shit. 

[TSARGA 57 / 3,122]

You guys talk about it as if it was the State's job to control cultural diversity.

 

9 hours ago, Major_Push said:

Of course there are some people who just naturally don't fit in. I don't quite know how one would fix that problem...

Social Darwinism.

 

9 hours ago, Major_Push said:

And to address your whole argument:

I believe that Germany shouldn't have accepted so many immigrants all at once since it doesn't give any time to assimilate and because it is a massive safety hazard. Yes, some immigrants are going to be shitty people since people in general are shitty like that.

It's not about accepting, but attracting the shittiest ones with social care.

 

[CheapTactic 74 / 3,855]

23 hours ago, Major_Push said:

 

Nice strawman. The point is that both sides are quick to push their agenda using any tragedy even when the facts are still coming out. It's just stupid. People have to wait for the facts to come out before arguing about things or else they're arguing over nothing but what they think the world should be while ignoring actual facts. Also, the people who are so hardpressed on defending the immigrants who commit a crime are indeed being stupid. Anyway, stop thinking that because you're a conservative that you're better than liberals. It's annoying seeing liberals and conservatives call each other cancers or other stupid shit like that. It's immature as hell. Please don't just blatantly attack other people you don't agree with them. If you want to name call other people then do that else where. The forums should be used for discussions. 

 

 

 

 

 

People who feel rejected by society are at a much higher risk than normal people to doing radical shit. Look at almost any of the school shooters in the U.S. or look at this Munich Shooter (who this thread was about).  Does it describe everybody? No. Is it an issue that should be addressed? Yes. 

 

I don't get how it's some liberal argument that's not true. It's pretty safe to say that people who fit in are less likely to do things out of the ordinary. People tend to dislike "different" people. If someone feels left out then it makes sense why they have a dislike for those who exclude them. Does it in anyway justify these barbaric acts? No. But it's important to try and understand why these things happen to prevent them. And when I say "these things", I mean school shootings and some terrorist attacks. 

 

The solution most of the time is also rather simple for the issue of people feeling rejected:

People shouldn't be dicks to other people for no reason. People bullying other people because of their race, religion, sexuality, wealth, etc. is incredibly harmful to begin with. Of course there are some people who just naturally don't fit in. I don't quite know how one would fix that problem...

 

And to address your whole argument:

I believe that Germany shouldn't have accepted so many immigrants all at once since it doesn't give any time to assimilate and because it is a massive safety hazard. Yes, some immigrants are going to be shitty people since people in general are shitty like that.

 

The problem I have with just labeling all immigrants as lazy rapist jihadists is that it's utterly stupid and just promotes misguided anger. People are innocent until proven guilty. Treating immigrants like shit even if they themselves aren't doing anything wrong is how you get racial problems down the line (like the U.S. with African Americans). Terrorism today is an issue that should be addressed. The solution, however, shouldn't be to just start hating all Muslim immigrants because that just sets up future problems. 

 

Regardless, I suppose that I should let Europe do whatever the fuck it wants to do since I'm in America. All I hope is that innocent Muslims and immigrants who are decent people don't get persecuted for no reason. 

 

P.S. I think that Germany was stupid in accepting so many immigrants since that's a lot of unknown people coming in a very short period of time from what is known to be an unstable country. It's not racist to be safe. But being safe doesn't require treating others like shit. 

There was no strawman, learn what it is, I have never made an opinion and claimed that it was yours, I have instead addressed one of its points, I very well know that both sides do it.

What I have also meant that the liberal argument of them not being accepted is just going to lead to religious conservatism to be ignored, future attacks to be shrugged off and the root of the problem to be unaddressed but only superficial lies, these people aren't doing because someone said something to them, they are doing it because of their religious motives and there are many cases that keep on happening because of it, even very recently they still keep on happening.

 

I am not a conservative either, and sorry, liberal ideology is what brought western Europe to be what it is today, alcoholism and drug addictions are acceptable and kewl including many other addictions and weaknesses, a lot men are "castrated", inequalities between genders and moral corruption is turning to something normal pushed by masses of media agencies alongside with corruption in muh muazing democracies that are one sided and rigged made to divide the nation to make it easier to take control.

A lot of these are also Conservative problems, and they have their own problems and issues.

And yes I know that not all of these issues can be caused by liberalism but by other factors.

I would guess there would be a liberal or 2 I would not care about and I have changed it to the liberal ideology, because not all of these problems are caused by all of the liberals.

 

Also the cases I have said are true and happened and sorry I don't see any pseudo patriot, nationalist or conservative that are going to do that, other than someone who is liberal or has other ideologies that bind with it. 

 

Fascism is not necessarily conservatism, nor is it liberalism, its above the false left-right that screws you from both ass and mouth, I anyways believe there are no radical ideologies, only ideologies that stand by themselves and a lot of hybrid ideologies, like Anarchism, Communism, Nationalism, Fascism, Tribalism and  many more... 

 

Instead of trying to shove me into the pathetic American broken system of left vs right. conservatives vs liberals, think again why I hate and dislike the liberal ideology( and I held myself very well when I spoke here), when it is also mixed with pseudo patriotism in my Slavic nations.

 

The point is, that he probably didn't live that  bad, like I said, there are cases where that is true and like you said, those cases are like the trash that shoots up schools or the Munich shooter.

Why are you calling this a terrorist attack all of a suddenly when it's not?Its a mass shooting, people tend to dislike strangers because they are different, that's the natural response, especially when those strangers have barbaric roots and religious conservatism that yet has been seen in Europe that makes them want to be Heaven's soldiers.

There were many many cases that terrorists that came from normal life standards that turned to terror due to them becoming religious conservatives.

 

I would say that its another problem caused by shooters being too 'liberal' with their weaknesses and have let themselves to go to this route, while he was depressed there were many other ways to solve and help depression lower, he might have not taken them.

 

Where is the bullying?First of all races should not be mixed, each race, each country and almost each nationality have their own cultures and deserve having their own country and their own culture, independent and secure from invasions of any kind.

That includes, Arabs, Slavs, Germanic nations, Nords, Americans and many more.

There is a reason to not allow this to happen, its to keep this thing safe and secured and not turn it into a mixed soup of freaks and who know's what else and disconnect the natural nations from their cultural roots, if I would want one day to go to some other nation I don't want to see it being mixed, I want to see it being unique and its unique points, nor I want it to look the same as every country that would turn to be mixed.

Just like it was wrong when the 'white man' came and invaded other countries for their resources doesn't mean its suddenly right for other races to come into white countries and take their resources.

 

 

Prob that its not a little, its a bunch, a lot of them are radical lunatics and there are plenty of evidence of Assad soldiers, ISIS and other terror organizations fighters that were in Syria have fled to Germany and countries in that area, there are many religious conservatives over there too by itself, very popular in mosques.

 

I have never said hate Muslim immigrants specifically, most of the barbaric Arab and African Immigrants that came to note WESTERN Europe came there for a reason, not to have fun nor to assimilate nor to work, they came to suck its blood, that's why they don't stop in the first country that's safe, because it doesn't have the social benefits like many of the western ones.

You could check the numbers the vast majority of those invaders ARE NOT capable of working nor are trying to do so, they are lazy blood suckers, naming facts is not stupid.

And like I even said, those illegal scum that came like swarms of bugs have it much easier than a regular Muslim that would have come from a normal country, that has an educational degree and an ability to work in a place of high level education is going to have it harder than them, he will have to actually work to justify his stay, to actually work his ass off to get somewhere.

In addition, I have specifically said what kind of Muslims immigrants I address too, only those from normal countries should be able to immigrate.

 

And this is not different to what I think if this would be different races, be it Slavic whites that come to other nations to leech or the French running to Britain to leech from it, I don't care, my points would be still the same.

 

 

 

I wonder.... I would think you would be fair right?America is heavily involved in the war in Syria(be it good or bad, like good by supplying the SDF or bad by supplying the FSA) why won't you take a few hundreds of thousands of them in?Especially when the USA support is mainly for the rebel side.

 

 

 

  

Edited July 28, 2016 by CheapTactic

[CheapTactic 74 / 3,855]

12 hours ago, TSARGA said:

You guys talk about it as if it was the State's job to control cultural diversity.

 

Social Darwinism.

 

It's not about accepting, but attracting the shittiest ones with social care.

 

Cultural diversity should not be a thing at all and yes its the job of the state to keep it safe, same with economy and crime levels kept low.

[WaterWolf11 43 / 3,087]

Jeez this post is nothing but multi paragraph replys to multi paragraph quotes.

 I have nothing to add to this.

[TSARGA 57 / 3,122]

17 hours ago, CheapTactic said:

Cultural diversity should not be a thing at all and yes its the job of the state to keep it safe, same with economy and crime levels kept low.

(ofc by "control" I meant "directly control")

 

There are 4 (+1) forces that unite individuals into an ethnic group:

-common language

-common tradition

-common culture

-common religion

(-common enemy) [not desirable]

 

The State is allowed to promote certain values in order to indirectly control ethnic diversity and this is how it should exploit these 4 (+1):

-the State gives a privileged legal status to the language that is the most spoken on the territory it occupies

-the State respects and promotes the dress code and traditional holidays and national heroes and special days and shit

-the State (partially) bases the law it enforces on the ethnic group's culture

-the State (partially) bases the law it enforces on the ethnic group's religion

(-war/political propaganda)

 

And this is why ethnic minorities always are minorities, even with fully open borders.

 

17 hours ago, CheapTactic said:

same with economy

What do you mean?

 

On 23/07/2016 at 10:41 PM, CNe7532294 said:

All these attacks whether its Columbine or Bastille have one common denominator. The people committing them had problems and never really fit into the society they were put in.

which is the common denominator of most voluntary crimes lol

Edited July 28, 2016 by TSARGA

[KawaiiHunter 2 / 2,322]

Ahem... Wheres the attacks on turkey? i mean a few weeks ago there was a coup and 65 people were killed and a few weeks earlier then that terror attack on airport of istanbul there were atleast more then 20 dead if im correct