current state of gfl ze post number 50

[Doorandal 20 / 3,115]

I 100% believe this thread will be longer than the essay i've done back in my elementary until high school.

[alpha_steven 28 / 2,543]

This thread basically points out some of the issues I've thought in a long period. (Might different in expression but same topic)

 

It's nearly impossible to address them all and solve with a perfect way everyone agrees.

The reason is simple: If everyone is being "selfish" and no one wants to "sacrifice", why would you expect for a good outcome.

 

But from my perspective, an admin should stand out first, the community believes in you, why would you just hang around there and pretend to be "not my deal"?

This isn't only for every admin on the current position, also for the future admins and potential applicants, and most importantly, also for me to think around.

 

Maybe we are taking ze too serious, we should take a break and have some fun externally.

Well, Just kidding ;p

[Malal 145 / 0]

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Guy complains about server needing more regulation, I suggest just remove the need for extra regulation by simplifying settings, that way people don't get frustrated and call for admin control all the freaking time.

How is removing bhop going to prevent trolling and mic spam/cancer?

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

you can't stop players from using certain weapons or doorhugging

oh you can, its a matter of if you want to

you can also just reward defending to incentivise it like some servers do

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

you can't force admins to be on the server at specific times

im not saying this

 

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

If you have a better manner in which to control the players and admins, it will be your job to suggest it

To control the admins you obviously just need to be more strict with them in terms of not doing their job, abusing commands etc

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

But the concept of harder maps remains the same on all servers.

This isn't true at all, even the hardest maps are still played and attempted and not rtved immediately.

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

I don't like bhop. It doesn't change the validity of my arguments

i never said it did, im just wondering how you can hate a game mechanic so much

 

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Great you save 2 seconds of defending in certain situations compared to a constant increase of work on a 24/7 basis, and somehow you think it justifies the larger mess that is created by the mechanic.

no i just said in some cases it helps the humans

 

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Humans are able to trigger more early, and zombies are able to catch up to humans more early

if you dont see how 40 seconds of holding is harder than 35 seconds of holding thats on you

 

9 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

RSS doesnt have the population as GFL

wow a korean server has less players than an international server with a much longer history and bigger community

also i said rss doesnt suffer from this problem, dont see how population is related to it

9 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Heck I even fear the same shit that killed the css server is now killing the RSS server. The css sever also had a fuckton of bhop, and now its pretty dead most of the time.

Nide and Unloze are doing fine and both have bhop, the reason for GFL CSS dying isn't because of bhop.

 

9 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

On css, bhop fucking destroyed a good deal of casual maps. Thats because a good deal of casual maps didn't require much defending and usually lots of running. Because of this the pro bhoppers can doorhug all day long while it be left to the non-bhoppers to defend, because the lack of defending by map design made it so even if most of their team dies, they can still win the map. Triggers were also activated early making it even harder for those who can't bhop to catch up. In the end of it, the bhoppers ruled the map, while those who couldn't bhop took the shit end of the stick. Non-bhoppers got tired of dealing with that shit, so they stopped playing on those maps.

You contradicted yourself, first you claim the bhoppers can just trigger early and win without the team, now youre claiming more people need to defend because of the bhoppers.

It's one or the other.

9 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Never asked for this. Stop twisting shit up.

the only way to prevent boosting is to remove knockback

[gkuo88 67 / 2,820]

1 hour ago, Malal said:

How is removing bhop going to prevent trolling and mic spam/cancer?

For the past arguments trying to answer how removing a mechanic reduces the amount of work needed to win a map, thus reducing the amount of regulation needed. Now, that I think about theres another argument too. Any mechanic like bhop increases the amount of work needed to be done, thus decreasing the probability of winning, especially in sessions without leadership. The players stop giving a shit when they come to the conclusion that they clearly cannot win or they dont care much about winning. That usually leads to some of them actively trolling and micspamming, probably to push the players into rtving. Its noticeable in some cases because it tones down heavily on the next map. (unless the same problems come up again)

 

1 hour ago, Malal said:

oh you can, its a matter of if you want to

you can also just reward defending to incentivise it like some servers do

No you can't. There will always be a limit as to how much players can deal with until enough is enough. The decline of css server is proof that there is a limit as to how much players can deal with before they decide its not worth playing on the server. As it was declining, all sorts of decisions to incentivise players such as skin rewards, resetting of the ranks, and even VIP in some cases were added onto the server to promote players to play. But just because there is incentive, doesn't mean that players will take it. Not only that, theres a limit on how much the server can offer to the players as well in terms of giving incentive. But in the end of it all, there will always be cases where players will just do their own thing.

 

1 hour ago, Malal said:

To control the admins you obviously just need to be more strict with them in terms of not doing their job, abusing commands etc

Ya sure we aren't doing this enough already? Theres a limited number of people who apply for admin, and a limited number of those who are worthy. For a server thats 24/7 active, there's almost no way to prevent micspam and trolling completely unless you personally force admins to come on at specific times.

 

2 hours ago, Malal said:

This isn't true at all, even the hardest maps are still played and attempted and not rtved immediately.

Yea once in a blue moon. Other than that, it usually a set up event, or a leader is present, or the first several rounds havent gone to shit. Or its the possibility of a new map that they haven't lost enough times to demoralize them enough. But the general idea still remains universal, harder maps are attempted less often, and the harder it gets the less its attempted. (just to reiterate one more time, leaders pushing for the map, or set up events do not count) 

 

 

1 hour ago, Malal said:

if you dont see how 40 seconds of holding is harder than 35 seconds of holding thats on you

I already told you. Humans with bhop can get to the door faster, save them 5 seconds. Zombies with bhop can get to the humans faster, saves them 5 seconds too. The amount of defending time remains the same. The amount of fire power needed increases, due to bhopping being harder to hit along with prefire needed at certain doors.

 

1 hour ago, Malal said:

also i said rss doesnt suffer from this problem, dont see how population is related to it

 

1 hour ago, Malal said:

Nide and Unloze are doing fine and both have bhop, the reason for GFL CSS dying isn't because of bhop.

 

Thats because you made a shit goalpost. It's the same crap as on css where people justified server setting by putting up a single win and acting like it proves everything is alright. Like I said, as long as the servers have players, anyone can claim that bhop was a success. It's not like anything implemented will kill a server within a week. (and even if it did, biased people can simply claim it was something else that happened that week)

 

Bhop is an increase in work, the amount of work will take some effect on the server. It might turn away some players, but not all of them, it might shift the general set of maps the server normally plays, to maybe easier ones, or ones that don't involve alot of running. It might cause some players to begin doorhugging more often. It's not going to kill a server outright, if anything it slowly poisons it. Server can still survive with the poison though.

 

Bhop was one of the factors that killed the gfl css server. There was a bunch of other stuff that fucking increased the difficulty, and when you get them all together, it's a lot more work than usual, and no one wanted to do that work. As a person who had treated the server as their home server since the death of plaguefest, I'm pretty fucking sure I know what killed it compared to whatever theory you have. You lead the players there, you understand the population, what they like, what they don't like, how they react to change. When certain incidents come about that are abnormal, you attempt to learn about them, and why the players acted as they did. Patterns emerge which gives a general idea of what drives players away from certain maps, and in some cases, away from the server in general.

 

2 hours ago, Malal said:

You contradicted yourself, first you claim the bhoppers can just trigger early and win without the team, now youre claiming more people need to defend because of the bhoppers.

It's one or the other.

no I didn't, reread that stuff. And who said it has to be one or the other. Some maps are easy enough that you dont need alot of defense to begin with. For example POTC was one where the pro bhoppers literally just hopped to the end without giving a fuck because all it takes is like 5 to 10 people to defend the final ship. Other maps actually require defense and the survival of the team. (I shouldnt have to give you an example of this)

 

2 hours ago, Malal said:

the only way to prevent boosting is to remove knockback

wot, ya cant reduce knockback or damage on certain guns? Even possibly restrict certain guns like the awp? on maybe select maps? (imbf you get pissy over another suggestion cause you dont want to give up one benefit at the cost of another)

[Malal 145 / 0]

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

he players stop giving a shit when they come to the conclusion that they clearly cannot win or they dont care much about winning. That usually leads to some of them actively trolling and micspamming, probably to push the players into rtving. Its noticeable in some cases because it tones down heavily on the next map. (unless the same problems come up again)

most autism in my experience happens on casual maps that are easy to win

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

No you can't. There will always be a limit as to how much players can deal with until enough is enough.

? i said you can force players not to doorhug, and then you mention about people quitting because they dont want to play anymore

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Ya sure we aren't doing this enough already? Theres a limited number of people who apply for admin, and a limited number of those who are worthy. For a server thats 24/7 active, there's almost no way to prevent micspam and trolling completely unless you personally force admins to come on at specific times.

whats your solution then, other than removing bhop

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Yea once in a blue moon

theyre not played every day but that wasnt your point

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Other than that, it usually a set up event, or a leader is present, or the first several rounds havent gone to shit.

so now its from harder maps are avoided to theyre avoided when theres no good leader and the rounds go poorly

8 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

I already told you. Humans with bhop can get to the door faster, save them 5 seconds. Zombies with bhop can get to the humans faster, saves them 5 seconds too. The amount of defending time remains the same. The amount of fire power needed increases, due to bhopping being harder to hit along with prefire needed at certain doors. 

humans can bhop faster than ZMs usually because they arent being shot at, csgo has capped bhop so theres no 500+ vel zms either

9 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

Like I said, as long as the servers have players, anyone can claim that bhop was a success.

Literally not what I'm claiming in my first statement

and with my second one im pitching why nide and unloze are doing fine with bhop but it killed off gfl

9 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

no I didn't, reread that stuff.

you claim bhopping creates more defence work for non bhoppers but you also claim bhop creates less defence on maps like potc because you can trigger early

 

9 hours ago, gkuo88 said:

wot, ya cant reduce knockback or damage on certain guns? Even possibly restrict certain guns like the awp? on maybe select maps?

and then people boost with other weapons or find other ways to go about it

[gkuo88 67 / 2,820]

1 hour ago, Malal said:

most autism in my experience happens on casual maps that are easy to win

Well then, are they winning those maps? Casue if they are then they usually then move onto the next map. The server goes on like usual. if you're trying to stop attention whores, then I guess of course direct intervention is needed. But there is no doubt that there are groups of players who purposely cause trouble in order to get off the map, and you have to understand why they don't like the map. If those problems can be mitigated, then they might become more accepting of the map and cause less trouble.

 

2 hours ago, Malal said:

i said you can force players not to doorhug, and then you mention about people quitting because they dont want to play anymore

Ok explain to me how you can force players not to doorhug. Shit didn't work for css, I dont see it working for csgo either on any sort of server. There will always be some doorhuggers, and I want to hear how you're going to force them not to do it.

 

2 hours ago, Malal said:

whats your solution then, other than removing bhop

I don't have much of a solution. Heck maybe do something to increase human potential, just like bhop removed human potential. Like I said there are factors you can control and factors you can't. Also there be a good deal of choices that will require a sacrifice for a greater benefit. I can barely see the admin system being improved, well other than phantom and hotever's suggestion to decrease the acceptance time and probably hide the application process.

 

2 hours ago, Malal said:

theyre not played every day but that wasnt your point

Well I hope you get my point. They're avoided more often because of their difficulty. Harder maps require more work, it eats the energy of the players. If its too hard, players will learn through experience after many losses that they need more than what they regularly have, such as leaders, admin regulation, a good team that doesn't fall through on the first several levels. If they realize they aren't even close to what they need, they avoid the map because they know its a lost cause. 

 

2 hours ago, Malal said:

so now its from harder maps are avoided to theyre avoided when theres no good leader and the rounds go poorly

That should have always been a given, because the vast majority of time servers are not on tryhard mode and they dont have leaders on all the time. I decided to state it again, because I remembered that back when css was dying, people used examples of sessions with leadership to justify setting changes, which was another shit goalpost. Sessions with leadership are not representative of the vast majority of what happens on the server. For the vast majority of the time on the server, there isn't leadership. Sessions with leaders are run by the will of the leader. Sessions without leaders are run by the will of the players. That is why you have sessions where players attempt hard maps with a leader pushing them, but outside that, players usually do not vote for those maps, and if they do end up on the map without a leader, they usually rtv off it after rounds go poorly. You can't use a session with leadership to argue that players will naturally attempt difficult maps. 

 

Also rounds going poorly is already a given for very hard maps. If, without a leader, rounds have a chance of not going poorly, then it leaves a positive experience within players prompting them to try it out more often. (Also it would not be considered as a hard map to some) If, without a leader, rounds always go poorly, of course players are going to start avoiding that shit.

 

2 hours ago, Malal said:

humans can bhop faster than ZMs usually because they arent being shot at, csgo has capped bhop so theres no 500+ vel zms either

Work is work, stop trying to come up with weird scenarios in some attempt to prove that the amount of defense has decreased. The aspect that zombies can catch up faster and are harder to hit literally means more defending is needed no matter what. The team can have the zombies get shot at, but now they need more people to backpedal and cover and actually shoot at the zombies. And note that means the efforts of other players, aka factors you cannot control. If the players dont put in that extra effort, then zombies can regain ground faster, and zombies advance faster too. So shaving off 5 seconds from a 40 second defense means nothing if the defense team looses more than 12.5 % of the path compared to dealing without without bhop, or if there isn't an increase of 12.5% active defenders.

 

3 hours ago, Malal said:

and with my second one im pitching why nide and unloze are doing fine with bhop but it killed off gfl

Like I said, surviving with poison. Gfl had a higher cap (or was it unlimited? I know some players had it unlimited) and they also implemented a bunch of other things that increased the amount of defending needed. Decreasing knockback, boosted nades, double cost rebuys. When you got a fuckton of small poisons, it eventually gets to the players and they don't want to fucking deal with it, especially when they can go to another server and get the same win with lower effort.

 

3 hours ago, Malal said:

you claim bhopping creates more defence work for non bhoppers but you also claim bhop creates less defence on maps like potc because you can trigger early

No I never claimed that. Potc needs like 5-10 people defending that final ship. This is map design, not a benefit of bhop. The second problem is that you assume by triggering early this is a benefit for humans. The thing is, this isn't about ease. potc is easy to win as humans with or without bhop. But just because humans win, doesn't mean everyone is happy, and it doesnt mean that all players who started out as human have the chance to win.

 

A server without bhop usually has players running from defense to defense while loosing a few players here and there, while covering at the major defenses. You don't need to know how to bhop and win because you have wide freedom of choice. A server with bhop, those who can't bhop are stuck in the back. Defense spots are lost due to early triggers and non-bhoppers have to continuously run or backpedal throughout most of the map. (which is pretty hard if they haven't memorized the path) People can't really cover for you because they have to also continuously be moving forward as well. The bhopers in front have no incentive to slow down for you either. You assume that because triggers were hit early there's less defense needed. Rather, the type of defense had just changed from "holding spots" to "constant backpedaling", with backpedaling being harsher on the new players. Because backpedaling was hard and not many new players did it, zombies weren't getting hit by bullets as often, which gave them close to the same time saving boost as humans get from early triggering. Also new players get more easily slaughtered.

 

It's something you have to be there to understand. During those sessions, it was always the same people winning the map, which was why other players got sick of being stuck in the same role of cannon fodder. I've already seen this happen many times, dont attempt to make excuses or come up with theories on how you think it played out. Bhop granted a wider range to those who could do it, but at the same time removed a good range of options from those who couldn't do it.

 

3 hours ago, Malal said:

and then people boost with other weapons or find other ways to go about it

Just to clarify here, we're talking about a significant boost, enough to kill a good portion of defenders. Now, what other weapons or other ways are there? Shotguns?

[Pyros 1,796 / 30,750]

Hey, due to the creation of this post, I would please ask everyone to go there.

 

Cheers!