ZE Chicago's suggested weapon changes

[ChicagoBen 86 / 3,256]

Intro:

Skip to Major suggestions to get to the actually changes

 

GFL a few years ago took steps in giving players reason to mess around with other weapons not named Bizon and Negev by modifying the damage,knockback, and clip sizes of other weapons to bring other weapons up to the level of the clear 2 best weapons and giving players the option to mix things up and keep things fresh in a gamemode that's all about replay value. Some changes did mess the status quo like the rifles buffs and Negev nerf, while some pushed weapons in the right direction but missing the mark in like the mp5, mp7,ump,mac10. As someone who has come back in forth in the ZE community I've always wanted servers to attempt to make all the weapons designed for a 5v5 have meaning in a fast pace zombie shooter mod. So over the years I've created lists and gathered data on how to balance most the automatic weapons to be comparable and even unique to other guns, but in no way make players feel like they can't use the Bizon or current meta guns anymore. I've created a few charts trying this over the years, but this week I went a little crazy and made a jumbo google doc to lay out GFL's current weapon data with all its current modifications (Clip,DMG,KB) to highlight the issues: only 1 SMG is comparable to Bizon, 3 rifles are good(m4,m4s,ak) but the other 4 are memes, m249 is a joke to the laser spray Negev, and elites are the 2017 Negev for pistols with the rest irrelevant. 

 

Bizon, maybe P90, AK M4 and M4S, Negev, Elites.  6-7 weapons that stand out as the best or you are handicapping yourself in some way. Which highlights my next point is this isn't just a low amount of competitve weapons 6/26 (23%), but playstyles. We play the same maps over and over and over again, we see the same items same bosses same zombies but 1 variable that can often change is the weapons and playstyle. Sometimes on a map I practice my AK tapping skills but the next round I am going in 2 feet to a zombie with a Bizon. Part of my suggested changes is with the idea of giving fresh styles to fight the horde. 1 Example is the UMP, its a underpowered SMG right now that with its range and accuracy stats makes it the "shotgun smg" of its class, it should be buffed to be viable were it shines ~12 feet of a zombie guns blazing while keeping it in check with the Bizon by having a poor rate of fire and range compared to the Bizon. Does that mean you should drop your Bizon if you want to get close in with a smg for a ump with these changes? NO! Bizon is still right there in damage and shines everywhere else to make it the well rounded smg of it's class. @Ice Can use his ugly Bizon without feeling the need to switch at all with these suggestions.

 

-Shotguns and snipers need plenty of buffs that are harder to highlight and show compared to the automatic guns that I might dive into later.

 

Spreadsheets

I have split up the google doc into parts; Suggested changes, Current GFL numbers+ Suggestions, Rebuy calculations.

Suggested changes link: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i8sXZODyJ_j15AWZyHwbySSUmI1LNxrHq3TWVZ6H6Vc/edit?usp=sharing

Current GFL numbers+ Suggestions:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1P_FYZpXjN8bU8Zjh3t_4yW7dpUCgRj5Af9LrVQtBBHo/edit?usp=sharing

Rebuy calculations (Not very important here): https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1iGdHVObt_K3-rxbbaHDLcsFcmjME-ujtjt3bjFY_Xck/edit?usp=sharing

 

Suggestion Breakdown

It's not really obvious in the spreadsheet but I classify how much I stress each change by the shade of the purple that highlights it. Some changes like pistol price changes on the zmarket are not really that important to me. They are just things I would advice not get on my knees and beg like the UMP or Famas buffs. 

 

Major suggestions: 

SMG's

Mac10: Revert the damage nerf from 0.9x to 1.0. People claimed the mac10 was op before that nerf really didn't know how the gun works. With 50 clip and 1.0x damage its basically the same weapon as the Bizon in terms of damage at all ranges. However its got a slower fire rate (Bizon 509 BPM to mac 475) , is a worse rebuy weapon due to price per bullet spent, and in general it has a less consistent spray pattern than the Bizons easy to control bullets from bullets 10-55. This gun in the end would be a slightly harder to use Bizon that has a faster burst to burn its clip, thats it. Bizon consistent dmg mac10 more burst, similar style to the p90.

MP7: Increase clip size from 50 to 55.  This is a simple one to me MP7 is lacking a lot with its long reload and fire time, its damage numbers show its subpar at everything with mid and long range being average. Honestly +5 to clip size is a probably not enough of a buff to make it super close to Bizon, but its safe bet to not go wrong.

MP5: Increase clip size from 50 to 60. Weird how I recommend 60 to this and 55 to MP7 ? MP7 hits a bit harder than MP5 as numbers show MP7 still hits harder than MP5 even with 5 less bullets. This bumps up its BPM a ton (from 432 to 465). Again this buff might actually still make it undertuned since it would have the worst Damage close range vs all smgs, granted a smaller gap now but still. Easy buff as well imo.

UMP: Increase clip size from 45 to 50 and damage from 1.0x to 1.08x (8%). Ump is poop as it is currently. It has slowest rate of fire and worst range falloff of smg's as well which cripples the gun compared to the other SMG's. A way to fix this is to slide into its design, it's "shotgun smg" style. It, more than any other smg, should do more damage up close than its piers and with these numbers it will edge out the Bizon from 7.5 feet by about ~3 percent in terms of just damage. Bizon would do more damage at my rough guess at around 18 feet. Most players don't shoot zombies in that range so it encourages a style of in your face to the zombies. This guns horrible BPM (509 Biz vs its 378) and terrible range make it a horrible boss weapon and its slow fire and reload time are all reasons to stick with the Bizon.

 

Rifles

Famas: Increase the clip size from 25 to 50 and damage from 1.0x to 1.05x (+5%). This is a funny gun, it is what I call a tweener between smg's and rifles. Its running and gunning accuracy is between a rifle and a smg, fire rate is faster than most rifles closer to a smg, and its range falloff is faster than most rifles closer to a smg. So why not make a rifle with a smg like clip ? Numbers still make its damage worse than the meta rifles but slightly higher BPM than the other rifles. Overall the weapon would be a fun rifle/smg combo with stats that are acceptable. 

Galil: Increase clip size from 35 to 45 and damage from 1.0x to 1.10x (+%10). This gun in vanilla is pretty much a worse AK with a pretty bad spray pattern. This buff actually gives is damage close to the m4s while having a larger clip than those rifles.  This and the famas are the budget rifles in the normal game so to make it interesting they get larger clips for ze. Easy buff.

SG556(Krieg): Increase clip size from 30 to 35 and damage from 1.0x to 1.10x (+10%).  Krieg is better than the AUG with its raw damage and its 1 second faster reload. Much more reliable weapon so it gets a smaller tune than the AUG.  This guns average 10.3k DPM is nothing to the AKs 14.7k average, but with scope rifles you have to consider its strength, the scope and focusing zombies with steady taps and burst, so it's damage numbers can be tricky to balance. Either way it was underpowered before in testing and scope rifles are another style of play that would be fun to use if its more competitive.

AUG: Increase clip size from 30 to 40 and damage from 1.0x and 1.15x (+15%).   This gun is so bad since the csgo nerfs. Literally longest reload of any rifle or smg, low base damage and scope in fire rate is poor, needs stronger buffs than krieg just to keep up with, let alone be competitive. Easy buff

 

M249: Buff damage from 0.8x to 0.92 (+12%) and drop price from 4500 to 3500. Why is the m249 the same price as the Negev??????? Negev is still best BPM in the game and best vs damage based bosses so it has its role with it's op laser spray, so why is the m249 even in the same realm of nerfs as the Negev. It doesn't have that op spray pattern, way less bpm and damage. This buff sets it's damage numbers comparable to a low end rifle but that calculation includes reload, so while it's firing it should be the most dps in the game and the price drop gives players an extra rebuy (still 400 bullets in 4 rebuys vs negev 450 in 3). EASY BUFF!!!

 

Pistols

USP-S: Increase clip size from 12 to 15.  Simple one since most people don't buy pistols anymore you just get starter pistols like the glock and USP. Glock is decent in ze with its 20 clip and fast fire but the USP is a little lacking. It's a minor thing but a ton of people use this gun if you think about it. Easy buff for a common weapon.

Cz: Increase clip size from 12 to 18 and damage from 1.0x to 1.20x (+%20).  Cz might be the worst pistol for ZE right now with its draw time. Average time to pull out a weapon is 1.0 seconds, sometimes 1.1 or 1.2, the CZ takes 1.83 seconds to pull out or buy, if you think about how you use pistols it's a break the piggy bank type of situation. Cz takes century's to pull out for 12 measly bullets and a long reload. Needs this buff to make it decent and its style would be interesting. These buffs would make it a burst style pistol. Draw time makes it a horrible rebuy weapon still. 

 

Shotguns

Nova: Drop price to 900$. Shotguns are ass 

XM(Auto):  Drop price to 1200$.  Even if people think its best shotgun I feel more impactful with a glock.

Sawed-Off: Drop price to 900$. Its range is 3 feet vs bhopping zombies. Cant even boost well.

Mag-7: Drop price to 1200$: Similar to XM with its fast reload vs other shotguns.

^ These changes at least let people have fun without wasting 2k buying it, or it can allow nerds to rebuy it to meme up. Just adds another way to mess around why not?

 

Moderate suggestions: Stuff that tends only impact the nerds on the server but can be impactful.

SMG's

P90: Drop price from 2350$ to 2250$.  By far most expensive SMG, 70 % more expensive than a Bizon! this allow 1 extra p90 rebuy from 6 to 7 (Bizon gets 11).

MP7: Drop price from 1700 to 1600$.  Considering with changes it turns into a medicore SMG it should at least be a smidge closer to the Bizon price gold standard.

 

Rifles

Ak: Decrease damage from 1.15x to 1.12 (-3%). Ak is insane damage right now if you learn to just get close and spray properly. Does the most damage up close to by a fair bit to zombies even after my suggestions 
+ this nerf to get an idea how strong it is for those that can control it's spray. M4s might be more accurate but you can't control its damage, you can control the AK's accuracy with 1-2 taps , its straight down 10 bullet spray or its easy to learn full spray.

Famas: Drop price to 1,800$

M4: Drop price to 2,500$    It's really simple, AK is just as good if not better and its style is almost exactly like the m4 in ZE and it costs 2500. I can't really explain the self explanatory 

M4S: Drop price to 2,600$   Same as M4 ^^^^^ +100 $ just because more range.

AUG:  Drop price to 3,100$   Gun sucks. Can't imagine this being as expensive as the m249.

 

Pistols:

P250: Clip size from 13 to 15.  Best range pistol so might as well try and make it more competitive with the Elites.

5-7:  Clip size from 20 to 25. No pistol comes close to Elites in clip size, 5-7 is pretty mediocre so might as well get a 2nd pistol that has a large clip size. 

 

Light suggestions:  Minor Stuff that doesn't move the needle very much just minor improvements.

SMG's

Bizon:  Price from 1400 to 1450

Mac10: Price from 1400 to 1500

Pistols

Glock: Clip from 20 to 22

Tec9: Clip from 18 to 20, Damage from 1.0x to 1.1x

Shotgun

Nova: Damage from 1.5x to 1.8x

XM: Damage 1.8x to 2.0x

Sawed-0ff: Damage 1.1x to 1.8x

Mag-7: Damage 1.1x 1.6x

 

Conclusion

Changes don't change what's good right now at all, Ak's still best DPM on zombies, Negevs best vs Bosses, Bizon still best all around SMG and best to rebuy overall, Elites still best pistol.  And Skadoosh is a horrible leader.

 

I please urge admins and common folk that read this to make their own opinions on these changes. I just want the ball rolling. 

Edited February 3, 2021 by ChicagoBen
cleanup

[DUSTY 170 / 4,093]

Way too long
Skip to Shotguns
Make better
End

[ChicagoBen 86 / 3,256]

11 minutes ago, DUSTY said:

Way too long
End

I mean just read the color coating and its pretty fast too.  

[Block 281 / 5,749]

The true buff needed is for the Elites, I should be able to backpedal and hold my own instead of feeling pressured to reload my primary.

Make them like the source Elites!

 

Also XM Damage from 1.8x to 3.0x and clip from 8 - 20

Edited February 1, 2021 by Block

[5210349 0 / 725]

I agree with block on increasing XM bullet capacity. XM is a bad gun to defend with as is, but it feels much more rewarding hitting all your shots knowing the reload time takes forever compared to a bizon/p90.

[ChicagoBen 86 / 3,256]

2 hours ago, 5210349 said:

I agree with block on increasing XM bullet capacity. 

If you increase clip size on the XM sawed or nova you increase total reload time by ~.5 seconds for each extra bullet, remember those 3 weapons you reload each bullet back in. So increasing clip size past 10 imo would just be more frustrating since thats like at least a 6 second full reload at 10 bullets. 20 would Require around 8-11 seconds of reloading as a rough guess. So outside of maybe 2-4 extra bullets those 3 shotguns should get damage or $ changes not clip changes @Block

[Block 281 / 5,749]

58 minutes ago, ChicagoBen said:

If you increase clip size on the XM sawed or nova you increase total reload time by ~.5 seconds for each extra bullet, remember those 3 weapons you reload each bullet back in. So increasing clip size past 10 imo would just be more frustrating since thats like at least a 6 second full reload at 10 bullets. 20 would Require around 8-11 seconds of reloading as a rough guess. So outside of maybe 2-4 extra bullets those 3 shotguns should get damage or $ changes not clip changes @Block

 

Thats only if we don't make every shell reload 2x rounds

THROW IT ON THE BOARD!

[Aurora is smelly 192 / 5,018]

lot of words not a lot of brain please next time make it easier for us ze players we are not smarterer then you

[Flops 386 / 7,269]

I call for chicago ben's status to be upgraded from random to normal human for tremendous contributions to ZE 

[Yae Miko 23 / 2,678]

A really great idea for suggestions Chicago Ben. But i would be happy if they increase SG556 Ammo to 40 and damage to 1.15x. 🙂

[ChicagoBen 86 / 3,256]

On 2/3/2021 at 8:29 PM, Aleister said:

A really great idea for suggestions Chicago Ben. But i would be happy if they increase SG556 Ammo to 40 and damage to 1.15x. 🙂

Thanks for the love.

I actually thought hard on this with the scoped rifles. Krieg (SG556) with your suggested buffs makes the Bullets Per Minute rate go from 317 bullets to 335, and it's damage from 10.5k to 11.5k. This equates to about a 10 % damage buff. M4A1-S is likely its "meta" comparison of long range oppressive rifles, (Aug is poo poo still my b) and it's damage is 12.8k and a BPM of 339. This would put the Kreig(SSG) at about 10 % less damage if you full spray over time than the M4S.

 

If you zoom out a bit and ask yourself, what if you balance the scope rifles to be the same power as the other rifles what would be the better weapon? Clearly the scoped rifles with all the extra benefits the scope gives. 

 

So to have any decent sense of balance the scoped rifles need to be a clear worse option to spray with than it's alternatives. Being only 10 % weaker at non stop spraying than the m4 but being able to tap or even scope-spray headshots at will is around the range I get nervous at personally.

 

Maybe I can get behind the 5 % damage buff but not both personally.  Not a bad idea Aleister just explaining why I thought the balance I did. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by ChicagoBen
cleanup

[Yae Miko 23 / 2,678]

7 hours ago, ChicagoBen said:

Thanks for the love.

I actually thought hard on this with the scoped rifles. Krieg (SG556) with your suggested buffs makes the Bullets Per Minute rate go from 317 bullets to 335, and it's damage from 10.5k to 11.5k. This equates to about a 10 % damage buff. M4A1-S is likely its "meta" comparison of long range oppressive rifles, (Aug is poo poo still my b) and it's damage is 12.8k and a BPM of 339. This would put the Kreig(SSG) at about 10 % less damage if you full spray over time than the M4S.

 

If you zoom out a bit and ask yourself, what if you balance the scope rifles to be the same power as the other rifles what would be the better weapon? Clearly the scoped rifles with all the extra benefits the scope gives. 

 

So to have any decent sense of balance the scoped rifles need to be a clear worse option to spray with than it's alternatives. Being only 10 % weaker at non stop spraying than the m4 but being able to tap or even scope-spray headshots at will is around the range I get nervous at personally.

 

Maybe I can get behind the 5 % damage buff but not both personally.  Not a bad idea Aleister just explaining why I thought the balance I did. 

 

 

 

About that it depends on maps + you already stated it about the scope. Yes, when you use the scope the damage is still the same but you can better aim the target. But the only problem is with SG556 like when you play on a small or medium map , you have low movement speed, long reload and low/0 knockbacks, which means normal zombies/ bhop zombies can easily kill you. Thats why i would increase the damage a bit. M4 as you said is the meta. You can use M4 on every map.

[ChicagoBen 86 / 3,256]

Well aug sg both got 5 % dmg buff so you halfway to your goal.  @Aleister