New command to hide the players character

[_PJ 20 / 2,554]

If plugins to hide players or make them transparent are too taxing on the server, then that's fine: we'll have to make do without. However, if that is the case, how are other csgo servers able to hide players? Are our servers just really shitty or something? This isn't a shitpost, I just don't understand why it would be that only GFL has issues with this type of plugin.
 

On 1/12/2018 at 9:49 AM, hotEvercLear said:

I think part of the challenge of the game is learning the maps, and knowing where/how/when to run and jump at spots. It takes practice and some level of intelligence (memory, spacial awareness, cause and effect though processing, ect...) by limiting what you can visually see and process when all the human stack.

Sure, I can see how less visibility can lead to higher-skill moments, and reward experienced players who have memorized parts of the map. But this once again overlooks new player experience. If a player new to ze picks up a heal on santa, for example, everyone promptly informs them to use it immediately by taking it out and pressing 'g' . While this is great for people who are trying their best to beat the map, it really sucks for the new guy that was trying to help the team.
I realize this isn't really related to the !hide plugin, but the point is new players get screwed over so hard, and it honestly prevents the growth of our community. Improving new player experience is a bigger deal than people seem to realize, with everyone thinking their way is the best because they've been here longer.

This is a discussion that I'm very interested so feel free to tag me in your post if you'd like a response. I would also enjoy talking via discord PMs, Steam Messages, or verbally any way you can reach me. Especially if you understand the limitations of our server and why hide plugins are so taxing, since that makes this entire discussion meaningless anyways.

[WarpedCakez 217 / 5,411]

20 minutes ago, _PJ said:

Are our servers just really shitty or something?

 

Yes

 

EDIT: I meant the server crashes all the time not the people or anything

Edited January 16, 2018 by WarpedCakez
Clarification

[Snowy 837 / 11,431]

54 minutes ago, WarpedCakez said:

 

Yes

 

EDIT: I meant the server crashes all the time not the people or anything

Server doesn't crash all the time, unless someone keeps asking us to test some maps that causes the server to crash , or random csgo updates. There's also random csgo bullshits

Edited January 16, 2018 by xSnowyAngel

[hotEvercLear 194 / 4,723]

3 hours ago, Malal said:

Do you really think people are getting low fps due to settings? The server has 30-60 players to render + particles + lasers + other stuff it really takes a tole, a lot of ZE maps are also poorly optimized.

 

can you clarify for me, is your understanding of Game Engine Mechanics and the role the server plays and the role the individuals PC setup plays, is that the server does all the Visual rendering of each player's visuals (models, lighting, FXs, environment, textures, ect...) and then basically creates a video stream that it sends to the individual's PC over the internet to display on a monitor????? Because if it is I need to change how I explain things to you...

 

Ummmm, yes, an individual's Hardware Setup and personal game settings will have the greatest impact on their FPS... 

 

The Server is there to create a platform the individual players connect to. I will try to over simplify this for you, but basically what the server is doing is providing data (coordinates of other players, data about how they are interacting with the environment like directions they are facing, speed they are traveling, and calculations about how those interactings effect every other player, accepting inputs of that same data from each individuals, calucating that data, and then transmitting the effect of those interactions back out to each individual player). The goal of the server is to take in, process, and distribute all this information to everyone as many times per second as possible to create as close to a "real time" experience as possible. It is not rendering visuals for you, it is sending the information about "how" your individual setup based on your specific hardware and settings should render the visuals. The more calculations we put on the server (like adding more needless plugins and software and routines it has to execute) the longer (in terms of milliseconds mind you) it takes to process and distribute the information each player needs. The more the server has to calculate and execute, the longer it takes to get that information out to the players. The longer it takes, the more we experience lag or choppiness or freezing or things like that... or cause it to not "refresh the environment" quickly enough for our high end builds to render the visuals to their max potential (less of a concern with modern servers that are not run out of someone basement and in a legit data center...)

 

The game engine, and textures, models, maps and other environmental components are all stored on your personal machine (hard drive), loaded into RAM for quicker access by the system when the server tells  your machine what map to load, and then based on the data/information received from the server it takes that information (where each player is currently located in the environment, what they are doing, where they are looking, how they are interacting, ect...) and then renders the visuals that are displayed on your monitor by engaging your CPU / GPU to perform specialized and highly complex computational tasks. 

 

That is why when it comes to having a good gaming experience, Latency > Bandwidth when it comes it internet connection (assuming you are not trying to play with your 1000 remaining free AOL hours over a 56.6k dial up), and you have to ensure you don't have a bottle neck with your CPU/GPU/RAM that is also being exacerbated by game settings that don't match the capabilities of your hardware setup. 

 

I would be happy to provide you some more game setting to limit your hardware bottlenecks, but there is also www.google.com. 

[hotEvercLear 194 / 4,723]

to add to something noted a few time, I think part of the reason GFL is almost always at 64 players in the server, and that you need to log into the server 1+ hours before an event to get in, is because of the chaos and challenge our current ZE Game mode and plugins provides. 

 

I have not really played in any of the Eastern Euro or Asian ZE servers, but I believe the GFL server game settings provide the most challenging ZE experience... why would we want to nerf that and possibly tax the server even more? 

 

For me, I took the fact that I had a hard time staying alive in this game mode / server as a challenge I wanted to overcome and get better at, and that was enjoyable for me (and I am still super noob on most lasers, challenge accepted!!!!!!!!!).... isn't that why we play competitive games and not fully cooperative hippy games???? because we are all trying to do something hard better than other people (the basic theory of any competitive activity).... 

 

This thread has certainly created a lively debate, and I am loving it! 

[EnickTheDemon 25 / 3,098]

WESTERSAND WILL NOT BE FUN ANYMORE

[hotEvercLear 194 / 4,723]

Enick, if Westersand was suddenly banned by Trump, would you still play ZE or leave the community????? 

[Doorandal 20 / 3,115]

Hide command sometimes can be so helpful, for example at the last lv of pidaras when a lot of people have to jump on to a moving platform. But doing hide on laser map is no for me. I'm kinda neutral for this. 

Edited January 16, 2018 by mikasa

[_PJ 20 / 2,554]

Minecraft Adventure has an in-map feature that lets you see through teammates in a way you can still see where all your teammates are. I haven't ever heard about this being taxing on the server, but maybe it is?
Maybe the !hide wasn't made/implemented in a way to mantain good server performance?
Coming from a CAD background, the difference between Suppress and Hide comes to mind: where suppressed objects are basically deleted until you unsuppress them whereas hidden objects are simply not rendered. Is it possible that the !hide command we used in the past was simply operating too much on the server side? Would it be worthwhile contacting the mapper for Minecraft Adventure to see how he did it?
Just some thoughts, since as I mentioned before this entire discussion is useless unless it's possible to implement a working !hide in the fist place.
 

[hotEvercLear 194 / 4,723]

I like this idea PJ. I wonder it is the same principle like "Render this as transparent" vs "dont even bother rendering this" 

 

One obviously taxes the server side and client side more than the other. 

 

Another issue is the fact that all these maps are not to the same standards, or quality controls or frameworks so it is hard to do server side optimization for all the different ZE Maps, and in the same way it would be hard for all mappers to optimize their maps to each and every server since they have different settings and hardware and plugins/software. also many of them are sloppily thrown together at night while drunk/high while watching anime on another device so that plays into it as well probably...

 

Can someone decompile Minecraft with Hammer or something and see if they can pull the code/script that is creating the transparency on the player model? I am curious if it is a script running with the map itself, or something in the actual player model. 

[UZDJn63ERP6yDRuk9zrYJMxyqq 2 / 1,657]

2 hours ago, hotEvercLear said:

I like this idea PJ. I wonder it is the same principle like "Render this as transparent" vs "dont even bother rendering this" 

 

One obviously taxes the server side and client side more than the other. 

 

Another issue is the fact that all these maps are not to the same standards, or quality controls or frameworks so it is hard to do server side optimization for all the different ZE Maps, and in the same way it would be hard for all mappers to optimize their maps to each and every server since they have different settings and hardware and plugins/software. also many of them are sloppily thrown together at night while drunk/high while watching anime on another device so that plays into it as well probably...

 

Can someone decompile Minecraft with Hammer or something and see if they can pull the code/script that is creating the transparency on the player model? I am curious if it is a script running with the map itself, or something in the actual player model. 

There is no script. That map uses a player model that becomes transparent through fade distance. It is customized.

[Aireesan 115 / 3,568]

2 hours ago, hotEvercLear said:

Can someone decompile Minecraft with Hammer or something and see if they can pull the code/script that is creating the transparency on the player model? I am curious if it is a script running with the map itself, or something in the actual player model. 

i really want to believe this is a joke

[hotEvercLear 194 / 4,723]

45 minutes ago, Aireesan said:

i really want to believe this is a joke

 

considering UZDJ posted a helpful response with something interesting directly answering my question 13 min before you made your post, you can believe whatever you want...

 

Thank you UZDJ, very interesting. 

 

So seemingly, to have a !hide like feature that does not put additional and unnecessary load on the server one route would be to force/push a custom player model from the server to each client who connects that is customized in a similar way to the Minecraft model. 

[Malal 145 / 0]

9 hours ago, hotEvercLear said:

can you clarify for me, is your understanding of Game Engine Mechanics and the role the server plays and the role the individuals PC setup plays, is that the server does all the Visual rendering of each player's visuals (models, lighting, FXs, environment, textures, ect...) and then basically creates a video stream that it sends to the individual's PC over the internet to display on a monitor????? Because if it is I need to change how I explain things to you...

What? It doesn't render anything it didn't already render?

 

9 hours ago, hotEvercLear said:

Ummmm, yes, an individual's Hardware Setup and personal game settings will have the greatest impact on their FPS... 

Sure but if you really think most people complaining about low fps in ZE are at fault due to poor settings and hardware you are mistaken, bench mark 64/64 GFL on a poorly optimized map vs old dust2 in MM, you will notice a massive difference.

 

9 hours ago, hotEvercLear said:

The Server is there to create a platform the individual players connect to.

Ok I know all this but a simple !hide plugin doesn't take up much server resources, I am sure there are other plugins that could be swapped out for it.

 

9 hours ago, hotEvercLear said:

I would be happy to provide you some more game setting to limit your hardware bottlenecks, but there is also www.google.com. 

Don't need any help with that I run the game fine on anything but ZE without a !hide command, I have fully optimized my game as much as I can.

[Tibet 15 / 1,795]

Think it should be based on a few questions:

1) Can the server support it without further crippling gameplay for the user?
2) Is the change useful/fun?
3) Does the plugin go against what the map maker wants from the players ( specfically lasermaps).

It shouldnt matter what "laserfags" think but whether it's an overall improvement to the server and its members. 

[Malal 145 / 0]

58 minutes ago, xZephire said:

very good point! If the mapper wanted people to be able to see easily he can hide players you can see this feature being used in a bunch of other maps. The mapper created it like this we should respect the mappers decision.

For the mapper to do that he would need to add custom player models and it would also greatly increase file size.

 

What about mappers who don't want things like entwatch/bhud/Timeleft messages on their map?

 

And if this change will make it too easy what about the extra jump height for crouch jumps, does that in itself not make the server easier? I see no one protesting that as it is a feature that has been on for a while.

[_PJ 20 / 2,554]

1 hour ago, Malal said:

For the mapper to do that he would need to add custom player models and it would also greatly increase file size.

Next time I see Luff I'll try to remember to ask him about this. i.e. does he know how to make playermodels that turn transparent when you get close, has he considered using them, does file size become an issue, and most importantly what settings/plugins were intended for use on his maps. I already have a feeling that he'll be mostly indifferent, as well as most of the rest of the mapping community, but to be fair I'll ask mappers when I can and try to post their responses in this thread. Zeph acts like he's white knighting for the mapping community but I doubt he knows what many mappers want.
Based on the fact that many mappers have "home communities" I would guess that they will say they map mostly for whatever community they frequent, and playtest mostly using those settings/plugins. Does that mean that we should increase knockback and slow down lasers for Crobat's maps? I'd say that the ultimate decision is on the community whether or not we want to implement any feature, but asking mappers certainly seems like a good starting point.

That addresses the other two of Tibet's 3-point breakdown of this issue (which I agree with). Instead of answering the objective questions I tried to build ways to answer them in more meaningful ways, so let's see where that takes us.

[hotEvercLear 194 / 4,723]

strait to autism hour PJ... that is where this will probably take us... but good points from you and tibet. 

[Malal 145 / 0]

4 hours ago, xZephire said:

not give the players an advantage

then it wouldn't come with a cooldown timer to help would it?

 

4 hours ago, xZephire said:

Thats the reason another big server gives btw for not having it. Its not really possible to argue against it (but still its stupid l0l.)

only big server i know of without it is DtK and they don't have it because the owner has bad blood with the maker

 

4 hours ago, xZephire said:

Yes. It makes it easier to jump over boxes in general it helps with crouch jumping. Gfl s mentality is to help new players the lower gravity grately helps with that. Winning laser maps uhmm not so sure if thats what new players aim for. But again cant really argue with it. yea its a feature that makes it easier for humans to beat any map. just like hide would .

Then it'd help new players with who die due to low fps or die to a trap they can't see?

 

4 hours ago, xZephire said:

 

Tbh im pretty sure you can make a vote for the hide plugin and people wouldnt want to have it. Idk for me its just like shit it just makes it tooo easy like yes low grav and entwatch make things easier too but hide is like...

There is no way !hide would make things easier then lower gravity or entwatch on item maps, the thing is we have had those for a while so no one cares

[Neon 32 / 1,869]

I am not familiar with CSGO but highly highly doubt that a plugin which makes near playermodels transparent would influence the server performance.