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Ability to View Applications

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Posted  Edited by BlazingArson

I believe the original problem with this was people getting harrassed for being denied, members replying to applicant spitefully, and general toxicity. I understand the want for transparency but I don't think it's necessary with applications. If there is an applicant you don't trust applied fairly, talk to higher-ups about it (DL's/TLs probably). 
Edit: I belive Liloz has said something about the forums not being able to make people view without being able to comment, could be wrong though.

Edited by BlazingArson

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37 minutes ago, harry said:

why?

Because I don't feel comfortable doing so. It is not needed, can't really recall it being public ever.


 

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13 minutes ago, Pyros said:

Because I don't comfortable doing so. It is not needed, can't really recall it being public ever.

I dont see why this would be an issue. If there is no problem with the way you are running the server, or how you are treating the people, then no harm will come of being to view them. If it is an anxiety/public eye issue, perhaps you should not be in a position that is scrutinized, or one that could trigger your anxiety.


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4 minutes ago, Amelie said:

I dont see why this would be an issue. If there is no problem with the way you are running the server, or how you are treating the people, then no harm will come of being to view them. If it is an anxiety/public eye issue, perhaps you should not be in a position that is scrutinized, or one that could trigger your anxiety.

The problem, as stated in my first comment, is the general toxicity that came when we use to have them visible. Yes, we have moderation to deal with it, but it's best to avoid it altogether. There's no real point to being able to see applications. As I said in my first comment, if you have suspicions someone got special favors, talk to a DL if its a server admin application, or I guess it'd be the director of teams if it was a team member applications


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Just now, BlazingArson said:

The problem, as stated in my first comment, is the general toxicity that came when we use to have them visible. Yes, we have moderation to deal with it, but it's best to avoid it altogether. There's no real point to being able to see applications. As I said in my first comment, if you have suspicions someone got special favors, talk to a DL if its a server admin application, or I guess it'd be the director of teams if it was a team member applications

Toxicity should not be a problem, but it is. That’s why we have mods and rules. Toxicity is a punishable offense. 
 

also, there are reasons for keeping it visible. I put them in my first post.


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I guess I just don't want people @'ing me in discord telling me my opinion of their friend is wrong and giving me a nice paragraph as to why I should completely change my view. Changing this would require the community to act mature about how staff apps are handled and while there are some members who would indeed be respectful, there are a lot more who wouldn't be. Gmod especially is not the place I would look to when looking for mature people on the internet. I know there are benefits as you listed but I also have to look at the downsides and I just don't think the pros outweigh the cons. 

 

Transparency is good, but I think this would be a little too much. 

 

I would have zero problems with the apps being made viewable after they were completed, but not while they are in progress. 

 

Also staff lists exist so players can see who the staff members are on each server, specifically so they don't have to worry about getting slain by people they might not know. The information is out there, they just have to take a little time to find it if they want it. 

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I just don't believe this is necessary. 

 

I'd have to check with @Liloz01 again but I believe he said that it wasn't possible for someone to be able to view an application but not be able to comment.  

 

Anyway, I see quite a few problems with this. Apparently in the past, there have been times where players would see declined applications and harass/bother the applicant over it. I wasn't here when that happened, but I have heard it from higher ups so I assume it to be true and probably an obnoxious mess to have to deal with, especially for the applicant being harassed. That brings me to the topic of shit posting. I have experienced this first hand where admins have posted very low quality content and memes on my Event Coordinator application. This was admins, imagine the problems we would have if regular Members could comment. In regards to Members commenting, I see a problem with bias. A lot of Members will get told by their friends that they are applying, head to the forums and +1. This wouldn't be a problem, bust most Members don't know how to leave a valuable vote that actually contributes to the application. If all Members were able to view and comment on applications, most of the time it will just be a clogged mess of people inputting things that don't matter or posting -1's and +1's because they are friends with them or simply just dislike them. Even if there was a way for Members+ to be able to view applications or see who is applying but not comment, I see the same thing happening but it just wont be viewable for the public to see. Believe it or not a lot of people have biases towards people, I don't know why but that's just how it is on the internet. Some people don't like others for whatever reason and when they see someone applying that they they have a problem with, I can see scenarios happening where they will air out all of their dirty personal laundry (probably one sided aswel) to hinder the applicants chances. If someone being an admin is that big of a deal for the person then they can report it to the higher up, but I trust most of the admins (at least the admins I work with) enough to not be dumb and see people for who they are and will vote on their applications accordingly, if they believe they should not be in a position of power. 

 

3 minutes ago, P i n g u said:

I guess I just don't want people @'ing me in discord telling me my opinion of their friend is wrong and giving me a nice paragraph as to why I should completely change my view.

Another amazing point made while I am typing this. I've had experiences with admins coming to me about why I should change my vote on people and that it's "stupid" or "doesn't make sense". It would most likely happen on a grander scale if applications were made public. 

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2 minutes ago, P i n g u said:

I guess I just don't want people @'ing me in discord telling me my opinion of their friend is wrong and giving me a nice paragraph as to why I should completely change my view. Changing this would require the community to act mature about how staff apps are handled and while there are some members who would indeed be respectful, there are a lot more who wouldn't be. Gmod especially is not the place I would look to when looking for mature people on the internet. I know there are benefits as you listed but I also have to look at the downsides and I just don't think the pros outweigh the cons. 

 

Transparency is good, but I think this would be a little too much. 

 

I would have zero problems with the apps being made viewable after they were completed, but not while they are in progress. 

 

Also staff lists exist so players can see who the staff members are on each server, specifically so they don't have to worry about getting slain by people they might not know. The information is out there, they just have to take a little time to find it if they want it. 

I will have to respond to this in points, sorry!

 

-if people are @‘ing you, this is something that happens no matter what role you have. 
 

-The apps are handled maturely, but keeping them invisible takes that away. Reminiscent of a protective mother hiding her child from the bad of the world.

 

-If the level of maturity reflected should fall under the rules and guidelines. Meaning these types of individuals eventually end up banned, gagged or muted. It should not be “why allow toxic people the ability to post”, it should be “I trust the mods to do a good job and protect me.”

 

-I only wish for them to be viewable, perhaps theres a way to code this?

 

-The staff list idea is good, but only if it’s easily accessible. 


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20 minutes ago, Amelie said:

If it is an anxiety/public eye issue, perhaps you should not be in a position that is scrutinized, or one that could trigger your anxiety.

Don't have this personally and I don't think any of my managers have it.

 

11 minutes ago, Amelie said:
13 minutes ago, BlazingArson said:

 

Toxicity should not be a problem, but it is. That’s why we have mods and rules. Toxicity is a punishable offense. 

Why allow something that can be used to harass and be toxic towards other? I really can't recall by head anything important a member has brought up to posts they can see (using Ban Appeals as example, most if not all replies are shitpost).

 

I personally see nothing really good coming out of allowing members to see admin apps besides allowing people to see it.


 

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@Ash-'s opinion on gmod: 

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1 minute ago, Serenity said:

I just don't believe this is necessary. 

 

I'd have to check with @Liloz01 again but I believe he said that it wasn't possible for someone to be able to view an application but not be able to comment.  

 

Anyway, I see quite a few problems with this. Apparently in the past, there have been times where players would see declined applications and harass/bother the applicant over it. I wasn't here when that happened, but I have heard it from higher ups so I assume it to be true and probably an obnoxious mess to have to deal with, especially for the applicant being harassed. That brings me to the topic of shit posting. I have experienced this first hand where admins have posted very low quality content and memes on my Event Coordinator application. This was admins, imagine the problems we would have if regular Members could comment. In regards to Members commenting, I see a problem with bias. A lot of Members will get told by their friends that they are applying, head to the forums and +1. This wouldn't be a problem, bust most Members don't know how to leave a valuable vote that actually contributes to the application. If all Members were able to view and comment on applications, most of the time it will just be a clogged mess of people inputting things that don't matter or posting -1's and +1's because they are friends with them or simply just dislike them. Even if there was a way for Members+ to be able to view applications or see who is applying but not comment, I see the same thing happening but it just wont be viewable for the public to see. Believe it or not a lot of people have biases towards people, I don't know why but that's just how it is on the internet. Some people don't like others for whatever reason and when they see someone applying that they they have a problem with, I can see scenarios happening where they will air out all of their dirty personal laundry (probably one sided aswel) to hinder the applicants chances. If someone being an admin is that big of a deal for the person then they can report it to the higher up, but I trust most of the admins (at least the admins I work with) enough to not be dumb and see people for who they are and will vote on their applications accordingly, if they believe they should not be in a position of power. 

 

Another amazing point made while I am typing this. I've had experiences with admins coming to me about why I should change my vote on people and that it's "stupid" or "doesn't make sense". It would most likely happen on a grander scale if applications were made public. 

-people who harass others should not equal taking away the platform for good people. It should mean punishing them.

 

-admins posting memes on your app is a completely different issue entirely, those admins should be punished. Sorry this happened.

 

-member votes have never held weight, only current admin and higher up votes. So it wouldn’t matter if a post was liked.

 

-Humans are inherently judge mental creatures. Why are only certain people allowed to hold opinions?

 

Again, I am very sorry you were harassed by the admins. You are a wonderful person, and I look forward to your future progress in GFL

3 minutes ago, Pyros said:

Don't have this personally and I don't think any of my managers have it.

 

Why allow something that can be used to harass and be toxic towards other? I really can't recall by head anything important a member has brought up to posts they can see (using Ban Appeals as example, most if not all replies are shitpost).

 

I personally see nothing really good coming out of allowing members to see admin apps besides allowing people to see it.

I see a huge issue here is most of these higher ups have been flat out harassed by individuals. Ranging from DMs, @s, and even targeted forum posts. 
 

I understand that, and I am deeply sorry. However, it is not entirely the fault of transparency. These individuals should be punished accordingly. And scrutiny comes with the price of the role. I’m sure it was no surprise before, with all the stories from other higher ups.  


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Posted  Edited by Edge

This would just lead to more shitposting and people being toxic towards those who are denied or to the admins that -1 their friend who applied. Shitposting is fun but I don't really see it as a benefit over the negatives. Maybe it would be okay to show only accepted applications as viewable?

 

Is there a specific role or server where you think this could be beneficial? My gut is saying that their is a specific thing that happened that you think this change would have prevented.

Edited by Edge

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2 minutes ago, Edge said:

This would just lead to more shitposting and people being toxic towards those who are denied or to the admins that -1 their friend who applied. Shitposting is fun but I don't really see it as a benefit over the negatives. Maybe it would be okay to show only accepted applications as viewable?

 

Is there a specific role or server where you think this could be beneficial? My gut is saying that their is a specific thing that happened that you thought this change would have prevented.

 

-these things are bad, but are punishable offenses. I do not believe members should be able to post, only view!

 

-The issue that happened before was when mod apps were visible. Just a couple months ago, the entirety of GFL was able to see that the last interaction on a page full of sitting mod apps was 7 months old. GFL did nothing about this, until we started to talk shit about it. Then the entirety of the mod team was disbanded, demoted for some, and revamped. My fear isn’t that something has happened, my fear is that GFL would do this again. To just let it sit there for 7 months without anyone knowing. GFL discord was full to the brim with shitposts, off topics, and spam bots. It’s just something I’d rather not experience again. 

 

 


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15 minutes ago, P i n g u said:

 

I would have zero problems with the apps being made viewable after they were completed, but not while they are in progress. 

I agree here, making applications that have already been completed would be better than just always visible. And while this could still lead to toxicity, it'd be much less, as there is nothing they can change. Only problem is people who get denied would still get harassed.


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6 minutes ago, Amelie said:

 

 

-The issue that happened before was when mod apps were visible. Just a couple months ago, the entirety of GFL was able to see that the last interaction on a page full of sitting mod apps was 7 months old. GFL did nothing about this, until we started to talk shit about it. Then the entirety of the mod team was disbanded, demoted for some, and revamped. My fear isn’t that something has happened, my fear is that GFL would do this again. To just let it sit there for 7 months without anyone knowing. GFL discord was full to the brim with shitposts, off topics, and spam bots. It’s just something I’d rather not experience again. 

 

 

Right now it seems like not even admins can view moderator applications. Maybe a safe solution would be to allow Admin+ on any server to VIEW ONLY these applications. This would allow some checks and balances :).

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2 minutes ago, Edge said:

 

Right now it seems like not even admins can view moderator applications. Maybe a safe solution would be to allow Admin+ on any server to VIEW ONLY these applications. This would allow some checks and balances :).

Ah! I see. So GFL trusts you enough to admin a server, but not enough to vote on applications. Hm.


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18 minutes ago, Amelie said:

GFL did nothing about this, until we started to talk shit about it.

This is a bit wrong, I can recall at least a few times we talked about it with Mod team. If I recall correctly, the apps were sitting in the void because the Mod TL at the time felt like there was no need for new mods.


 

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@Ash-'s opinion on gmod: 

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image.png.c3ced03940ca3f9bff0b8c6b1b425d4f.png

 

 

 

 

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