Ability to View Applications

[Amelie 434 / 7,376]

5 minutes ago, Roger Gunshot said:

Nobody is saying that they can't deal with harassment and toxicity, nobody in this thread has said that yet you keep going back to it. I would appreciate if you didn't ask me to resign based off of my opposition to this idea and my unwillingness to expose others to the toxicity and harassment I deal with every time I log onto the server. If I misunderstood that I apologize, but that's how it comes off. Our point is that there is no reason to open up even more avenues for it to occur. While the job of the community is not to shut down all possible methods of toxicity and harassment (especially since that's impossible), it IS the job of the community to not open even MORE places for it to occur. Again, that's exactly what happened with TTTFun. Opened up more toxicity and harassment.

It was a general statement, I’m very sorry if you felt it was aimed towards you. We can’t let the mere idea of toxicity scare us into stagnancy.

 

 

Edit: thought I should elaborate on this. 
What is the level of toxicity that should “close” something. Because if that’s the case, we need to stop hosting servers on games that are highly toxic. Such as GMOD.

Edited December 24, 2020 by Amelie

[Alexis 578 / 12,012]

I don't believe the removal of certain servers because of Toxicity is beneficial to GFL financially as a whole. If a server has a very active staff base, it usually remains toxic-free most good days. Toxicity occurs in any game, some more severe than others. Of course everyone knows that.

[Ash 177 / 3,624]

On 12/23/2020 at 2:05 PM, Pyros said:

Just so we can be clear, GMod Server Admin apps will not become public.

 

CSGO will also not be making our admin apps public

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,197]

I wasn't going to respond again but I was quoted so I got a notification.

 

7 hours ago, Amelie said:

DLs will be able to completely take over, choosing every admin they want, most likely only friends.

DLs don't handle applications unless the SM isn't here, or they aren't handling the applications properly

 

 

7 hours ago, Amelie said:

Do not think that I’m crazy for saying this, because the higher ups also have the same mentality regarding their own admins. Which is why even admins, the people who are trusted to keep servers clean and running efficient, cannot view apps

Fairly certain I said this earlier, but admins can view nearly all server admin applications. I'm a server admin on the TTT Anarchy GMod server, and I can and have looked at other servers in other division's admin apps. Some CS:GO servers seem to be the only ones that blocks us if we aren't an admin on their servers, which idek how they do that because I thought all admins were in the same forum group (meaning they would get the same perms i believe). Though Idk too much about how the forums work.

 

7 hours ago, Amelie said:

And the idea that members do not need to see this information is elitist

Not really? It's a common practice to only let the team one is applying for to see the application. 
It's not elitist to only let the team have input on who is going to be in their team. It is not elitist to not let members not see the process, which is supposed to be private input on an applicant. Just like if you were to apply for a job, is it then elitist if the employer doesn't let you sit in on every application? No, it's just common decency to the applicants to keep their applications private. You do not need to see who +1'd who, why someone -1'd an applicant, someone's paragraph of reasoning for their Neutral to +1 vote. If there is any favoritism (or other ill-practice), we have plenty of decent admins in every server that would report it to the DL, and then if nothing happens would go higher up with their concerns. 
And once again, to know who is admin on which server look at the staff lists. 

 

7 hours ago, Amelie said:

Why do the higher ups expect me to trust them with no visibility when they do not extend the same hand to their own admins?

I do think there are definitely areas that could use more visibility. However, this is not one of those areas.
Anyways, admin applications don't get much input from higher ups (DL+) unless there is something going wrong on the application. So I don't see why you are tying admin applications to higher ups so much, they only have say on who is an admin if the Server Manager is not demoting someone who needs to be demoted, or other similar instances. 

 

2 hours ago, Amelie said:

If toxicity is an issue for you, do not interact deeply in communities where it runs rampant. It is not the communities job to shut down all possible toxic waste locations. It is your job to put yourself into situations where you feel as comfortable as you wish. The transparency kept responsibility in check. It was a way to know if the leaders were even active. 
 

harassment is a different issue, but please. If you can’t help or do your job when you need to because of your feelings (which should not be part of a mods job, only to enforce the rules), then please resign.

Of course our admins should be able to handle toxicity, but why subject them to toxicity that is avoidable without harming the usability of the forums, and subjecting them to it gives barely any positive benefits to them or the community in general that they could get by doing so many other things?
There are other ways to see if leaders are active. Check their forums activity, how much recent work has gone into the server they manage, etc. If you have concerns that a SM is inactive and not doing their job bring it up with the DL. (If it's a TL bring it up with Ben [Director of Teams]) If applicants applications have gone way too long with nothing being said, they should talk to the SM/TL, then if they get no response they should go higher. 

[Joshy 4,364 / 44,955]

Would it be okay if we gave these hidden threads its own trial period?  I feel like it's unfair for people to ask for a trial period on the visible applications when it was already that way up until recently... now that we have hidden threads seems to me like only a few weeks maybe a month?  Now it's not okay for a trial period.

 

I think hot topics like these ones it's very hard to have a measurably "right" or "wrong" answer.  I'm a very big fan of transparency.  As some have pointed out before some of the threads do get low quality posts and harassment especially for more prominent members applying for roles.  The consequence of that is that is we miss out on a lot of very active talent; the only ones who can make it through squeaky clean are actually "out of sight; out of mind" people because nobody has anything to complain about regarding them (they've done nothing).  People who are more active like yourself, Amelie, become much more controversial because people have had time to develop an opinion of you, and I find that we are far more likely to hear complaints from the 1 out of 10 people who might not be a big fan... than compliments from the 9 out of 10 who adore you.  I don't know why that happens.  I think it's a very natural thing and I've seen in my retail experience the scarce few angry customers are far more likely to say something than the many happy ones.

 

I actually think in an odd way, that less visible applications might help with the transparency.  You might not be able to see the applications as a members, but now that we've pushed out the 1 out of 10 who drag the applications down... we've created a pathway for more people to apply for roles with confidence.  If you don't trust higher ups to make the decisions, then what better way to have a say in it than to have yourself and a few other joining these teams (diversifying the teams) and than having a voice on each topic.  With the visible topics you'd only be able to see something; you wouldn't be able to say something.  Wow.  So I'd personally rather give you a means to have a louder voice  instead of bigger eyes, and I think it would help bridge the large gap and barriers between member and "higher ups".  What do you think?

 

I also want to give another hint too I think some of the other teams like Writer and Social Media...  these are also really good ways to "get in."  I recommend people start applying for it.  They'll be included on the staff discord and I think they might even be able to see more on the forums too?  I can't recall (can correct me on that).  That staff discord we all say a lot of things in there too, and since you'll be a part of it you'll also have more ways to include yourself if you want to be involved too.

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,197]

4 minutes ago, Joshy said:

I also want to give another hint too I think some of the other teams like Writer and Social Media...  these are also really good ways to "get in."  I recommend people start applying for it.  They'll be included on the staff discord and I think they might even be able to see more on the forums too?  I can't recall (can correct me on that).  That staff discord we all say a lot of things in there too, and since you'll be a part of it you'll also have more ways to include yourself if you want to be involved too.

Using peoples want for transparancy to promote the teams, i see you Joshy 😏 
But in all seriousness, I agree with what you've said.
mainly making this comment because I hit the reaction limit

[Amelie 434 / 7,376]

1 hour ago, Ash said:

 

CSGO will also not be making our admin apps public

And why is this?

[Ash 177 / 3,624]

1 minute ago, Amelie said:

And why is this?

The Division Leader and I came to that decision.

[Auralanity 1,097 / 19,948]

29 minutes ago, Ash said:

The Division Leader and I came to that decision.

[Salad 1,132 / 18,987]

where's the omegalul reaction when i need it

[Yogpod 122 / 2,890]

26 minutes ago, Salad said:

where's the omegalul reaction when i need it

[Pyros 1,796 / 30,750]

4 hours ago, Auralanity said:

Probably because they don't feel it's necessary or good to do so.

[Infra 714 / 12,401]

I'll shit the fattest turd on this thread while semi-drunk since it seems like it won't reach a proper conclusion, and doesn't consider anything being said to propose a solution to the problem at hand.

 

I am all for having apps be public, I think there are many benefits to having them public - most covered by people in this very large thread. Unfortunately, everyone seems to think this decision was made by people who are "uninformed". There are reasons for why it is hidden, and why it will stay hidden, all reasons which are already covered. I won't repeat what everyone has said multiple times already.

 

Unsure why this is so hard to comprehend, but these are things we've seen happen. We're not as stupid as you claim we are, and we're not dictators that can do whatever we want like you claim we can, from SM all the way to Director. We have seen these things happen to players in our community. We have seen the utter trash thrown towards players who, in reality, have good intentions in offering to join and help us all out no matter what conclusion is reached on their application - what do they get in return? Some of them get completely shit on, to the point where they never want to return ever again. You've clearly not seen it happen and to what extent it goes to, which is why you seem to think people should just "absorb" the sheer garbage thrown at them for offering to help, when we can instead do something to prevent this from beginning at all.

 

17 hours ago, Amelie said:

If the apps continue to stay hidden, DLs will be able to completely take over, choosing every admin they want, most likely only friends.

 

I find it almost unbelievable you would even type something like this. Have some faith, for fucks sake. There are layers above and below every single role that prevents this from happening. You can bring up as many examples from 5 years ago as you want, but in reality, we aren't in 2015 anymore and things have changed based on mistakes made in the past.

 

These people are trusted by most because of several factors over time, have a little faith instead of assuming every single person around is here for personal gain with the ultimate goal of fucking you over.

 

11 hours ago, Amelie said:

If toxicity is an issue for you, do not interact deeply in communities where it runs rampant. It is not the communities job to shut down all possible toxic waste locations.

 

Except, it absolutely is our job. The highest priority of everyone in upper management is to eliminate anything that can harm the core community and whoever is in it. We all want to protect the members of this community, no matter what they do. Is your solution to just tell people to leave when they have issues? Are we supposed to not care at all about the members of our community? You seem to be suggesting that everyone should have iron skin, and if they can't handle it, they should fuck off. Quite frankly, terrible ideology. Another suggestion was to deal with it after it begins/happens, do you really think that stops them? Clearly, and in the least rude way, a lack of experience and perspective talking there.

 

Everyone here deserves to be protected. Most admin apps are genuine efforts to help out, and no matter how poor the attempt might be, we must ensure they don't have to deal with extreme bullshit - a major part of this is preventing opportunities for them to be attacked, which isn't a rarity at all in a community this large where we host many types of people. Will it completely stop harassment? Of course not, but it sure will prevent a ton of it from even beginning.

 

While I am for change, failing to see why the system is set up like this is just ignorance at this point. I absolutely love this discussion, as I personally believe there is a middle ground to all of this. I think we can meet somewhere in the middle, so we can reap some benefits while maintaining the safety of players that want to help out. Personally? I think accepted applications ONLY should be made public! This way, people can still audit who gets accepted and how that happens, along with giving future applicants a way to review themselves based on past accepted candidates. I think this a good middle ground, and can be a nice solution to the concerns being raised - as it gives the option of scrutinizing decisions when needed.

 

Let us discuss and propose an actual solution that takes into consideration both sides, rather than going around in circles with silly claims and defensive statements. (Again, from all perspectives.)

 

[Rhysin_ 540 / 13,197]

7 minutes ago, Infra said:

I'll shit the fattest turd on this thread while semi-drunk since it seems like it won't reach a proper conclusion, and doesn't consider anything being said to propose a solution to the problem at hand.

 

I am all for having apps be public, I think there are many benefits to having them public - most covered by people in this very large thread. Unfortunately, everyone seems to think this decision was made by people who are "uninformed". There are reasons for why it is hidden, and why it will stay hidden, all reasons which are already covered. I won't repeat what everyone has said multiple times already.

 

Unsure why this is so hard to comprehend, but these are things we've seen happen. We're not as stupid as you claim we are, and we're not dictators that can do whatever we want like you claim we can, from SM all the way to Director. We have seen these things happen to players in our community. We have seen the utter trash thrown towards players who, in reality, have good intentions in offering to join and help us all out no matter what conclusion is reached on their application - what do they get in return? Some of them get completely shit on, to the point where they never want to return ever again. You've clearly not seen it happen and to what extent it goes to, which is why you seem to think people should just "absorb" the sheer garbage thrown at them for offering to help, when we can instead do something to prevent this from beginning at all.

 

 

I find it almost unbelievable you would even type something like this. Have some faith, for fucks sake. There are layers above and below every single role that prevents this from happening. You can bring up as many examples from 5 years ago as you want, but in reality, we aren't in 2015 anymore and things have changed based on mistakes made in the past.

 

These people are trusted by most because of several factors over time, have a little faith instead of assuming every single person around is here for personal gain with the ultimate goal of fucking you over.

 

 

Except, it absolutely is our job. The highest priority of everyone in upper management is to eliminate anything that can harm the core community and whoever is in it. We all want to protect the members of this community, no matter what they do. Is your solution to just tell people to leave when they have issues? Are we supposed to not care at all about the members of our community? You seem to be suggesting that everyone should have iron skin, and if they can't handle it, they should fuck off. Quite frankly, terrible ideology. Another suggestion was to deal with it after it begins/happens, do you really think that stops them? Clearly, and in the least rude way, a lack of experience and perspective talking there.

 

Everyone here deserves to be protected. Most admin apps are genuine efforts to help out, and no matter how poor the attempt might be, we must ensure they don't have to deal with extreme bullshit - a major part of this is preventing opportunities for them to be attacked, which isn't a rarity at all in a community this large where we host many types of people. Will it completely stop harassment? Of course not, but it sure will prevent a ton of it from even beginning.

 

While I am for change, failing to see why the system is set up like this is just ignorance at this point. I absolutely love this discussion, as I personally believe there is a middle ground to all of this. I think we can meet somewhere in the middle, so we can reap some benefits while maintaining the safety of players that want to help out. Personally? I think accepted applications ONLY should be made public! This way, people can still audit who gets accepted and how that happens, along with giving future applicants a way to review themselves based on past accepted candidates. I think this a good middle ground, and can be a nice solution to the concerns being raised - as it gives the option of scrutinizing decisions when needed.

 

Let us discuss and propose an actual solution that takes into consideration both sides, rather than going around in circles with silly claims and defensive statements. (Again, from all perspectives.)

 

Honestly the best point made in the whole thread. Only accepted applications being shown is a good mid-ground idea that was brought up earlier in the thread, but steamrolled by everything else (I am partially at fault for not mentioning it). Thank you drunk Infra

[Rena 2,779 / 33,657]

A big issue I've seen happen countless times before is that, sometimes, even server admins hop in on toxic bandwagons against players whose applications were denied. Or when a player is being harassed for being denied and server admins don't care.

 

I personally agree with and understand it being hidden, but there are times I want to go back and read some old applications just for going down memory lane or even to just observe progress made by either a frequent applicant or the staff team. 

 

I see no harm in a hint of criticism from the public eye as long it doesn't turn into harassment; I feel sometimes outsiders are able to give advice and help applicants improve or just talk to them about what they can do to increase their chances. If there is any harassment coming from it, moderators are obliged to deal with it depending on platform. If server staff aren't taking the matter seriously or even fueling it, they don't deserve to hold their position.

[Trigger 155 / 4,994]

On 12/25/2020 at 1:17 AM, Infra said:

I'll shit the fattest turd on this thread while semi-drunk since it seems like it won't reach a proper conclusion, and doesn't consider anything being said to propose a solution to the problem at hand.

 

I am all for having apps be public, I think there are many benefits to having them public - most covered by people in this very large thread. Unfortunately, everyone seems to think this decision was made by people who are "uninformed". There are reasons for why it is hidden, and why it will stay hidden, all reasons which are already covered. I won't repeat what everyone has said multiple times already.

 

Unsure why this is so hard to comprehend, but these are things we've seen happen. We're not as stupid as you claim we are, and we're not dictators that can do whatever we want like you claim we can, from SM all the way to Director. We have seen these things happen to players in our community. We have seen the utter trash thrown towards players who, in reality, have good intentions in offering to join and help us all out no matter what conclusion is reached on their application - what do they get in return? Some of them get completely shit on, to the point where they never want to return ever again. You've clearly not seen it happen and to what extent it goes to, which is why you seem to think people should just "absorb" the sheer garbage thrown at them for offering to help, when we can instead do something to prevent this from beginning at all.

 

 

I find it almost unbelievable you would even type something like this. Have some faith, for fucks sake. There are layers above and below every single role that prevents this from happening. You can bring up as many examples from 5 years ago as you want, but in reality, we aren't in 2015 anymore and things have changed based on mistakes made in the past.

 

These people are trusted by most because of several factors over time, have a little faith instead of assuming every single person around is here for personal gain with the ultimate goal of fucking you over.

 

 

Except, it absolutely is our job. The highest priority of everyone in upper management is to eliminate anything that can harm the core community and whoever is in it. We all want to protect the members of this community, no matter what they do. Is your solution to just tell people to leave when they have issues? Are we supposed to not care at all about the members of our community? You seem to be suggesting that everyone should have iron skin, and if they can't handle it, they should fuck off. Quite frankly, terrible ideology. Another suggestion was to deal with it after it begins/happens, do you really think that stops them? Clearly, and in the least rude way, a lack of experience and perspective talking there.

 

Everyone here deserves to be protected. Most admin apps are genuine efforts to help out, and no matter how poor the attempt might be, we must ensure they don't have to deal with extreme bullshit - a major part of this is preventing opportunities for them to be attacked, which isn't a rarity at all in a community this large where we host many types of people. Will it completely stop harassment? Of course not, but it sure will prevent a ton of it from even beginning.

 

While I am for change, failing to see why the system is set up like this is just ignorance at this point. I absolutely love this discussion, as I personally believe there is a middle ground to all of this. I think we can meet somewhere in the middle, so we can reap some benefits while maintaining the safety of players that want to help out. Personally? I think accepted applications ONLY should be made public! This way, people can still audit who gets accepted and how that happens, along with giving future applicants a way to review themselves based on past accepted candidates. I think this a good middle ground, and can be a nice solution to the concerns being raised - as it gives the option of scrutinizing decisions when needed.

 

Let us discuss and propose an actual solution that takes into consideration both sides, rather than going around in circles with silly claims and defensive statements. (Again, from all perspectives.)

 

Couldn't have said it better.

[Male_08 403 / 0]

On 12/25/2020 at 1:17 AM, Infra said:

You can bring up as many examples from 5 years ago as you want, but in reality, we aren't in 2015 anymore and things have changed based on mistakes made in the past.

Yeah I don’t need to look that far back. Let me just look to last year and this year

[TheJitFace 699 / 18,162]

For the concerns of "toxicity", I don't think that is a huge concern. Just because some random shit talks an admin for their application doesn't mean you should hide them from everyone. Like can people seriously not handle someone making fun of them?

 

I have had multiple applications denied when I was younger, like 12 or 13 maybe, and I still didn't care if someone tried to shit on me for it. 

 

Of course you can complain about it and report it, but keeping applications hidden for people who are too sensitive is not right. I read Infra's post and yes I agree, you can't just say "suck it up and deal with it." However, just because a player gets made fun of a little bit for getting an application denied or something, doesn't mean all applications need to be hidden. I want to go back and see my old applications like how Pachimo said. I highly doubt a player getting harassed non stop over an application happens often. 

 

Going off of Amelie and Alexis, they are right about games being toxic. The people who are applying already have experienced toxicity from the servers they play on, usually depends on the game. For example, if someone who plays on the GFL rust server applies, gets denied, and then gets made fun of once or twice over it, I doubt that they would complain and feel harassed by players. This happens everywhere, yes it is nice that we are protecting players, but this effects everyone as a whole and a lot of players want to see applications.