Is CR any good in its current form?

[Nick 1,249 / 17,857]

Hi, I've been having a few concerns about the on-going Community Representative election, and I thought I'd bring it up here for discussion.

 

First of all, it seems the whole concept has lost a lot of its legitimacy, and I would very much like to hear of people's opinion about the current system. Moreover, if anyone has an idea that could improve the system, then that'd be cool to hear as well!

 

To kick-off I'd like to just quickly highlight the original intentions behind CR and describe my concerns about the current election cycle. When it was first announced, it was introduced like this:

Quote

A Community Representative is a member of the Council who is not a high-level staff member. GFL has tried for many years to make decisions based on more relevant input from members of the community, but the many attempts at this have not managed to fulfill that goal. CR is a new attempt at trying to accomplish this. A CR's sole responsibility is to participate in Council meetings.

 

At the same time, it was defined like so:

Quote

One or more non-staff members of the community will serve as Community Representatives in the Council. These are ideally people who often play on GFL’s servers or similar. These representatives will be elected by the community and serve as a member of Council for six months.

 

Looking at it now, the initial definition and initial implementation already differs in motivation, and I am actually not sure why this happened. My best guess is that Council came to the agreement that people between DL/TA and Members were underrepresented and thus allowed them to run for CR which was seemingly a fine solution at the time. I'd argue that with Staff Representatives being a thing now, all staff should be disallowed from running for CR; this has obvious drawback that I will get back to.

 

The intention of CR was to get people with a connection to the community or a part of it onto the Council so they can represent that part of GFL; it would often be discussed as kind of a "megaphone" for the different segments of GFL. It was never supposed to be a part one being staff or having been staff in the past, and this is exactly what prompted me to write this post.

 

I was very saddened to see how much of the campaign posts in the current election is spent on talking about staff experience when CR was created as a way to exactly avoid staff mentality. These posts should rather be about what gives them good connections to the community and how their view point will be different from staff; not that it might be very similar.

 

Ideally, staff members should probably just be disallowed as whole, as mentioned earlier, however, as we have seen in the elections, it is rare that non-staff run for CR. I think this can likely be explained by a few factors:

1. Staff has already donated a lot of their time and dedication to GFL, so it makes sense that this group of people would be more eager to pick up CR.
2. Staff (at least some position that are very player-facing) is a lot more visible to players and would likely have an easier time getting votes.
3. Non-staff might have experienced that the playing field is not fair.
4. The Council has not shared much of what they are doing, e.g. Council Meeting agendas have been quite empty for a while. Thus it is unclear what you are getting into and unclear why you would even want to.
5. Engagement/cohesion between the segments(/divisions/servers) of GFL seems to be at an all-time low.

 

Lastly, as I mentioned in the beginning, it seems the concept as a whole have lost a lot of its legitimacy and thus fewer and fewer run for CR. I do have some suggestions and ideas that I'd like to discuss, but I'll post those later so we hopefully can get some insight on the issues before going straight to solutions. 🙂

 

Hoping to hear from some of you!

Edited June 23, 2022 by Nick

[Infra 714 / 12,401]

Love the post Nick, looking forward to seeing responses! Just wanted to clear a few things up and maybe provide a little more insight so others can formulate their thoughts,

 

19 minutes ago, Nick said:

My best guess is that Council came to the agreement that people between DL/TA and Members were underrepresented and thus allowed them to run for CR which was seemingly a fine solution at the time.

 

The reasoning behind SMs being allowed to run is because SMs are not a supervisory role like DL/TA+ is. SMs are very much responsible for running and interacting with their respective communities, making them ideal candidates for a representative position. In my eyes, they are easily one of the most, if not the most, involved members of any given community - not many people know their community better than them.

 

 

22 minutes ago, Nick said:

The Council has not shared much of what they are doing, e.g. Council Meeting agendas have been quite empty for a while. Thus it is unclear what you are getting into and unclear why you would even want to.

 

Will be honest, this is because nothing much has actually been happening. We just got out of a period of major final exams for a lot of people, and with many of upper management busy and things just moving slowly, there isn't much to discuss. This has been the case for the past few months, with the exception of some months where a lot of projects were kicked off and underway, but there just isn't much going on at the moment besides some tech related revamps. This isn't to say nothing at all is happening, its just that there are projects underway that don't really involve Council whatsoever, hence most of the talking during meetings is in the "Status" sections.

 

I fully agree that the system has lost its flair from when it was initially announced, my personal opinion is that the system just cannot represent all of GFL's different communities like it is expected to, and having to put communities against each other is just not a great idea - especially looking at how it went last time. I think we need to work on finding a better way of going about this, we're just too big for this to work out imo. I think I'll hold the rest of my thoughts on CR for when you post your suggestions though 😛

[Worgee 812 / 13,264]

6 minutes ago, Infra said:

The reasoning behind SMs being allowed to run is because SMs are not a supervisory role like DL/TA+ is. SMs are very much responsible for running and interacting with their respective communities, making them ideal candidates for a representative position. In my eyes, they are easily one of the most, if not the most, involved members of any given community - not many people know their community better than them.

I can clearly see the point you are making, but from tons of experience then managers tend to distance themselves from the server and somewhat the community they are/were part of. In many cases they withdraw from being part of the server to work on maintaining and adding to the server. I've seen many managers get involved with things like CR which ultimately made them resign from manager to work on other things.
At the same time players in the servers tend to worship them to stay on their good side and not really knowing the manager directly. This would sway the vote for personal gain. On top of that, the larger the managed server is, the more votes they could push for simply asking players to go and vote for them.

[Auralanity 1,097 / 19,948]

I believe the problem lies with the fact that a lot of members feel, including myself, that CR is a "popularity contest" and they have no chance of winning due to their name, unless they are an admin/server manager on a sizable server. And if you look at the past CR winners, both members were quite well known and well acquainted with GFL as a whole. One of the candidates was a past director, even.  (Looking at you @Shuruia

 

Maybe having a guaranteed spot of a member/VIP winning would be feasible? 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Auralanity

[lobsterpaw 174 / 3,327]

Personally, I think it's kind of pointless to have right now. Maybe at some point in the past it was worth it, but right now I can't say that personally I like it very much. Perhaps this is just my personal opinion, and I'd love to hear feedback from people who disagree. I think the anime market right now just doesn't justify paying for Crunchyroll, but I can definitely justify sharing it with a few friends and splitting the cost. 

[Roger Gunshot 204 / 5,018]

I'll be plainly honest. In its current form, CR is extremely nepotistic and a popularity contest. A regular member that has very few connections to the "higher ups" has almost no shot of winning against any of the current candidates. Of the four, three of them are current server managers. One of the server managers is a senior Discord mod and a forum mod. One is an event coordinator as well as a server manager. The fourth applicant is a former server manager and division leader if my memory serves correctly. How is this in any way conducive to getting more regular members involved? These are all people that are well connected with the higher ups and have very recognizable names. Is it rare that non-staff run for CR? Yes. I believe that has to do with the either perceived or actual nepotism though. In some of the earlier CR elections, it was intended to be temporary. However, because they were friends with everyone, they were made permanent council members. Obviously there's stuff I'm probably missing from that, like what they did, what they brought to the table, etc., and don't even remember who the individuals were. But, from the outside looking in, how can it appear as anything but nepotism? What's the point in a regular person running if they know that the other people, that are friends with the higher ups, that are server managers, or are previous server managers, are likely going to get the vast majority of votes, simply due to their pre-existing ranks and such? In its current state, CR is just another role-gathering position for people that want more and more. 

Edited June 23, 2022 by Roger Gunshot

[Dragoon 385 / 10,460]

A lot of fantastic points brought up here. However, I'd like to make a quick point that I've noticed ever since the CR selection ceremony began. In all but one case, only a present or former staff member has ever ran for the position.

 

While this is not necessarily a bad thing, I frankly don't believe becoming CR is that appealing to most people. There are a lot of active people in our community who are not staff members, and they remain as people who don't get involved with the inner roles of the community and instead choose to stay as a normal player. If these types of people are the targets we're looking for to apply, then it creates a dilemma.

 

Most of the people who will choose to apply for CR are the people who are already motivated to apply for other positions. With the present round being the fourth full cycle, this point has mostly remained true for all this time. I do understand that there are quite a few people in the community who don't always feel that they're being heard, so while there may come such a candidate who can bring a lot more community interaction in the future, it's something that we don't have in the present.

Edited June 23, 2022 by Dragoon

[Salad 1,132 / 18,982]

In my humble opinion, I think CR as it stands should be replaced, or gotten rid of entirely. As mentioned by a few people above, It seems that hardly any members want to run for the position, which is fine for whatever reasons they may have, be it "nepotism" or that it is mostly a "who's name do we recognize" situation, which it has always been the latter.  Any election in a gaming community will always be a popularity contest, unless it is rigged in some way to not allow for that, but then is it really a true and fair election? Of course people will vote for those that they recognize, and that goes for the good and the bad, as seen in every single CR election. I was one of the first CRs, and I was a Team Leader at that time, and have been in Council the entire time since I was elected for the first time, so I've seen every CR in action, and been involved in the election process one way or another during every cycle. At the end of the day, the position doesn't really serve the purpose of being a non-staff member of the community, and never has. CRs need to be in touch with the community in some way, and every single one thus far has been, which anyone who plays our servers or is active somewhere can check the box for that criteria. I think that CRs also should have somewhat of an understanding of how the community as a whole operates, and you oftentimes cannot get that from someone who hasn't been in a staff position, which is just how it is. A lot of the time people tend to just stick to the server they enjoy and the community they have grown to know, which is natural and completely okay. That fact is also one of the driving reasons we have less members apply for the position, as a lot of people simply don't care or don't want to be involved in the "GFL Politics". If you instead have, lets say, the Server Manager of a specific community run for a position, you kind of get the best of both previous points, but you lose out on the real reason the position was created. I understand the frustration and feeling that it's always staff members of some sort in the position, and overall, I think it's pretty useless of a concept in it's current state. I would prefer to look into alternatives to the concept of an elected position as a whole, because it will never be able to accomplish the intended goals of CR perfectly. 

also i dont speak for anyone on council or any other directors, this is just my thoughts on the setup in response to the thread discussion.

TLDR: I agree with everyone here that some sort of change needs to be brought about, which council has already began discussing a bit for the future 🙂

if this post sucks and is unintelligible sorry get mad

[TheJitFace 699 / 18,162]

In my opinion, I think the members who are vocal with their opinions may be seen as controversial and believe that they don't stand a chance against the former staff who have good connections.

 

 

[annoying furry 6,300 / 63,950]

it sounded cool at first, but honestly i don't think it's been all that worth it. 

[Avi 97 / 1,421]

I remember last CR Election like it was yesterday. A lot of frustration and confusion mixed with misconceptions and ultimately disrespectful on many ends.

 

But while that occurred, I distinctly remember a Council Meeting where the process as a whole was discussed and ways to improve the position overall. We were told we had good suggestions and that made it seem like things would take a positive step forward. But I don't see a single suggestion or change implemented to improve the position.

 

In short, the CR Position is useless. I agree with others that the more the current council knows you, the better your chances of sponsor and winning.  I still get the same vibes I did when I first came around this community which isn't the most welcoming to non staff. 

 

If you do consider changing things, again I would suggest:

-Remove sponsorship or the option to have a sponsor. That just turns into a flex of "look at who sponsored me" or "look at how many sponsors I have"

-Have some type of event to ask the people running questions or get to know the candidates event. This was something I brought up and with monitored questions, it let's people know who they are voting for.

-Give meaning to "Community Representative" if that title stays the same. Much like last election (and a lot of the confusion that happened), the candidates aren't always well known globally in GFL, and that confuses people as to why they are called a community "representative" when their main purpose as we were told has nothing to do with representing the community.

-This will get struck down again but if you keep the position, have one representative from each division or have the two CR members not be from the same division/staff team/etc. You'll get a broader perspective on things and people will be more inclined to participate in Council related things if they have someone from their community or division there. And before you mention DLs serving that purpose, I can say without a doubt and others will agree that the DL doesn't always know what goes on at a community level.

 

While we're on the discussion of CR, I would like to throw in the Staff Council Representative position as well. For those that don't know, it's a position specifically dedicated to SM/TL etc to hold a position in Council and only those types of positions are eligible to hold it. I think it falls under the same uselessness as CR and also serves as a popularity kind of thing. If that remains as a position, the only people that should be eligible for CR is anyone under SM/TL (mods/admins/donors/members).

Edited June 24, 2022 by Avi
Spelling oops

[BestKevin 89 / 1,644]

I don't think the current management has the time or willpower to actually fix the position, in no way is the current CR representative of anything except someone that wants a role and is relatively popular to gain votes.

 

As we discussed on the last election, it's a role that seemingly just sits there for 6 months and votes in council meetings, most of the time it is claimed by staff, and then there are the staff positions mentioned above that are only for staff, so it's essentially a circle jerk.

 

It would be nice to see it be only for community members, we saw quite a few members that wanted to run for CR from the rotation community but were discouraged by being told it is a useless position and also the last member to run for it got backhanded out of the running for commenting on another candidates dead server.  Even this time he was the only one against candidates that were all higher staff.

 

I have seen no initiative to make it appealing for members, make the role useful at all, or to make the voting not a popularity contest.  Obviously it won't be removed this "term" because of this discussion but it probably should be.  The overall view on the role between staff is poor and they have reflected that onto any members that were passionate to try and make it something more.

[DaPainWayne 469 / 9,402]

 

I don't mean to turn this post into a meme. There are several good points brought up. Tbh, I agree with the several comments that CR is useless, or serves almost no purpose. Cause, well, it's mostly true. 99% of non-staff members don't want to get involved in GFL, because it's a gaming community so they just want to play the game. It's not reasonable to say the position shouldn't be allowed for anyone who holds a "Staff" position, because again, majority just don't care. It's also a matter of, well, some topics discussed just are not meant for some random person to hear. So, again if I'm being honest, anyone in Council should be a staff member of sorts. And tbh, the concept of CR should just be replaced with two additional SCM's in my opinion. 

 

Hot takes, but well, that's what I think. 

[Baconator 172 / 5,303]

Very good points have been brought up and I agree on almost all of them. One thing that has been floating in my mind while I've read though (for me personally) is the connection between staff and playerbase. This may seem confusing so hear me out lol

 

Example: (When I was heavily involved in the Rust community)

The best time for this example would either be when I was global server manager or Division Leader. I got to that point in the "staffing" due to the connections and effort that I put in. With this came a relationship between me (staff) and the players (playerbase). The playerbase began to trust the staff and would consistently go to them for issues or other things. This was brought up earlier where a Server Manager may bring the best of both worlds, the Server Manager is hearing what the players are saying and then that Manager has the connections to bring those voices higher. This worked really well in Rust and improved communication heavily. 

 

As I typed that I also thought of a new point: I would say CR is a big role. We would like members to be CR, however if they wanted to be involved I think (my personal opinion) would be that they would look inside the division they play and apply for a staff position there before even thinking about CR. This would in turn make them a staff member, assuming they are accepted, thus if they were to apply for CR in the future they would be "staff". Long post I know but it seems like it contradicts ever so slightly. Anyhow these are just my thoughts, feel free to comment on them lol

[BlueSkyS 49 / 991]

Not gonna add much since many have already voiced the same concerns; CR positions should have always been filled by an actual "community" member/player and not a staff member. I see the CR as the representative of the community at large and a way for the community to voice its concerns to higher up staff members and the council when there is a clear disagreement on an initiative or direction taken by said members. Hoping things will change regarding this.

[iLoveNapalm 134 / 3,969]

I know I said I would disconnect with GFL and I really do want to keep my life separated from it, but when I was linked this post, I was honestly appalled. I can not bite my tongue on this. Why is it now, over 6 months after I was disbarred, is there concern for the members running for CR? Where was this discussion when I brought it up during my campaign? Do none of you remember when I said "I am at a significant disadvantage because everyone else running is staff and is well known". It simply isn't fair. Back then, like my entire time in GFL, my opinions and thoughts were once again brushed off, but are now being considered when a higher up mentions it. Isn't this the exact reason as to why I left? It's just disappointing and almost disgraceful when I bring this exact point up over half a year ago and no one, not one person other than I, said a word. And by the way, don't even get me started on the voter suppression that was pulled when I was running for CR. Do you guys think going around saying "The CR role is useless" is going to incentivize members to run? I don't even want to know how many people abstained from voting because they believed the role was useless. In 100% seriousness, it honestly, honestly, saddens me to see and experience such a travesty firsthand. 

[Dragoon 385 / 10,460]

I've had more time to think about it, so I'd like to talk about my own thoughts both frankly and openly. 

 

I believe that there are two potential areas of improvement for two roles in Council, which are the Conmunity and Division Representative roles respectively. 

 

Firstly, the main flaw of CR is that people haven't felt like they can get in. I've always felt like I've been an outsider in GFL. Though I pondered applying for the position last year, I genuinely didn't think that I'd get a sponsor. If we're wanting this to be a community position, then it doesn't make sense for a Council member to be putting a stamp of approval on a candidate. We'd have more candidates if Council was only responding for a quick background check.

 

As for the position of DR, I don't really view it as much of a "Representative" thing at all, especially since it is effectively a permanent appointment. There have only been a few people who have ever held the role, and all of them have had the job of being a Division Leader. I feel as if there's a wasted opportunity there in what can be done with people in our "Major Divisions". Maybe we could put it to a similar vote or something of that sort. Or perhaps, we could instead change the role's name and have it serve the same function. Either way, it makes me wonder just exactly how it is we should define a Representative here in GFL. 

 

There was a period of time where I referred to Staff Council Members (SCM's) as Staff Representatives (SR's). Why? Because I liked the way way having three different abbreviations for Council roles would look on paper... Or rather, text. Though it was merely a dumb quirk of mine at that point in time, it gives me the idea now that we could possibly change the way we work with our Representative positions and see how it impacts people's views of our current system.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Dragoon

[Nick 1,249 / 17,857]

11 minutes ago, Dragoon said:

all of them have had the job of being a Division Leader

I wanted to quickly add that this is by design: 

It is meant to give DLs of big divisions representation on Council. 🙂 

[Dragoon 385 / 10,460]

I couldn't find a good place to fit it in the post, but this is something I intended to imply that I knew about in it. Personally, I don't think that DL's have to be exclusive Representatives. I intentionally drew the connection between Representatives and how SCM's do not represent anyone as no staff members (Excluding Council) voted for them to be in their roles, but you cannot say the same for DL's. This is why I'd prefer one wholly consistent way to define a Representative rather than having two separate usages for the term. 

Edited June 24, 2022 by Dragoon

[Shuruia 3,145 / 28,033]

Funny how no one mentioned that a big reason why staff run for CR is because they physically have no other way of being in Council when SCM/SR doesn't allow them to. I have brought this up several times in the past with no one addressing it. I ran for CR even though I was staff since it was quite literally the only way of me being in Council.

 

Maybe SCM is the problem, not CR. If SCM allowed for the limbo land between FM and PR to apply, then CR would be a lot more palatable to those that can't accept even the lowest of staff applying.

 

EDIT: Nevermind, I see that Avi brought up the SCM conundrum to some degree as well.

Edited June 24, 2022 by Shuruia